21 hours ago, xKostyan said:
…(with an exception to Song of peace)…
Apparently, I missed when Song of Peace became affected by common Control Diminishing mechanics (as well as a proton wall), which brings us back to the point of having more than 2 ECMs in a game where kills matter is shooting yourself into the leg.
On topic that intys rule,
I have here some things to compare;
let’s take some gunships modules and compare them to interceptor modules that are kind of similar;
Gunship module; Combat reboot on my Spark, reload time 41.4sec duration of effect is 2.2sec
Covert Ops module; Quantum Defence on my Wakizashi R, reload time 31.5sec duration 7 sec
Ecm module; Repair sabotage sys. on my Zen, reload time 22.5sec duration of effect is 6 sec + additional nerfs against opponents in range.
Gunship module; Aiming overcharge on my Spark, reload time 37.8sec duration of effect 9sec
Cov ops module; Pirate Orion TS on my Wakizashi R reload time 27sec duration of effect is 10sec.
Ecm modules; almost all give all kind of damage busts to ECM and nerfs against opponents in same time. reload time from 22.5-45 sec.
I will not write Tai’kins broken reload time of modules that should not even be on that ship. Ah, I will 9.9sec reload time on my Inhibitor crystal.
so much from balance here and OP from interceptors against anything else.
The combat reboot protects you against ALL damage types and debuffs for the ENTIRE duration of the module, the Quantum defense protects from most damage types, you are not immune to AoE damage, such as Pyro Emitter, Gravi lens, and I think about anything that is explosive, it removes stuns, but only for a short duration, after that they will resume to affect you, and things like the plasma web will also damage you.
The repair sabotage gives you 35% bonus to speed alongside debuff immunity, but no damage immunity whatsoever, the repair reduction is 80%, but only in 3000m range, not very big if you ask me.
Aiming Overcharge on Light-bringer is 30.9 seconds, and still lasts 9 seconds, 4 seconds more downtime than Orion, but with a crit build you get guaranteed crit, with a TTC you get 100% damage on them.
The energy transfer for the ECM modules is 15 points a second, almost negligible, the damage boosts help out a little, since like Guards, ECMs don’t excel in weapon damage, Zhen is an exception but requires specific circumstances, and the velocity on it is very low, have you actually tried it out? It’s terrible.
Also speaking of Inhibitor Crystal you should check out the Quark Beamer on Lightbringer, maybe we should give frigate manoeuvrability to all fighters and make them as tough as federal interceptors, I’m sure that will fix it.
8 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:
The combat reboot protects you against ALL damage types and debuffs for the ENTIRE duration of the module, the Quantum defense protects from most damage types, you are not immune to AoE damage, such as Pyro Emitter, Gravi lens, and I think about anything that is explosive, it removes stuns, but only for a short duration, after that they will resume to affect you, and things like the plasma web will also damage you.
The repair sabotage gives you 35% bonus to speed alongside debuff immunity, but no damage immunity whatsoever, the repair reduction is 80%, but only in 3000m range, not very big if you ask me.
Aiming Overcharge on Light-bringer is 30.9 seconds, and still lasts 9 seconds, 4 seconds more downtime than Orion, but with a crit build you get guaranteed crit, with a TTC you get 100% damage on them.
The energy transfer for the ECM modules is 15 points a second, almost negligible, the damage boosts help out a little, since like Guards, ECMs don’t excel in weapon damage, Zhen is an exception but requires specific circumstances, and the velocity on it is very low, have you actually tried it out? It’s terrible.
Also speaking of
on Lightbringer, maybe we should give frigate manoeuvrability to all fighters and make them as tough as federal interceptors, I’m sure that will fix it.
3
First of all, I know what specific module does.
Also, Combat reboot makes gunship not 100% safe. It does take collision damage.
The point of all this was to compare some similar modules duration of them and reload time and as you can see the duration and reload time are strongly in favor of interceptors.
8 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:
maybe we should give frigate manoeuvrability to all fighters
and yes please, make all frigates slow as empire gunships, so 277km/sec and please make there main special module reload time as empire gunships have.
9 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:
Inhibitor Crystal you should check out the Quark Beamer
This can’t even be compared, first can be fired from an invisible ship that can then fly along with projectile and ship can be invisible at the same time.
Also as addition Inhibitor Crystal have extra slowing effect.
When you hit interceptor with Quark Beamer you will see miracle. You do know that miracles are extra rare?
On 10/9/2018 at 6:40 PM, GatoGrande said:
I got home from work today, turned on CPU and played few PvPs
Well just to see how all PvP modes are dominated by small ship.
Small ships have so much advantage against any other class that it is pointless to play anything else.
I will not xxxxx much here even that game is so unbalanced since interceptors > any other class
(…)
And if you do all these small ships will still be OP.
Your own screenshot from another game:
Spoiler
Blue team should steamroll the red team there if your hypothesis would be true…
Please post screenshots with whole roster of both teams and what gamemode it was, not only enemy team when you loose.
3 hours ago, GatoGrande said:
First of all, I know what specific module does.
Also, Combat reboot makes gunship not 100% safe. It does take collision damage.
The point of all this was to compare some similar modules duration of them and reload time and as you can see the duration and reload time are strongly in favor of interceptors.
and yes please, make all frigates slow as empire gunships, so 277km/sec and please make there main special module reload time as empire gunships have.
This can’t even be compared, first can be fired from an invisible ship that can then fly along with projectile and ship can be invisible at the same time.
Also as addition Inhibitor Crystal have extra slowing effect.
When you hit interceptor with Quark Beamer you will see miracle. You do know that miracles are extra rare?
Quantum defence won’t protect you against collision damage either, and interceptors are more likely to receive it than a fighter.
The reload times might be shorter but the modules are for a class which has the fastest pace in combat in the game, if you had to wait 60 seconds for your modules to be ready interceptor dogfights would last forever and people would just avoid doing them.
Also it was supposed to be other way around, make the fighters slower and weaker, the only time frigates are faster then fighters are guards with the special module, but it’s still for making up for their lack of speed, and federal frigates can still be made short work of, they are still frigates, there is so much agility you can give them, and they can only have so much health.
The inhibitor crystal consumes health, the quark doesn’t, the crystal detonates when you get too far from it, the quark doesn’t, the crystal only deals upwards of 16k damage, if in the epicentre, and only once, the Quark deals 11k damage a second for as long as the target is in range, damage is the same in all range, and it travels faster than the crystal, it’s just that it has a slightly shorter range.
18 hours ago, GatoGrande said:
On topic that intys rule,
I have here some things to compare;
let’s take some gunships modules and compare them to interceptor modules that are kind of similar;
Gunship module; Combat reboot on my Spark, reload time 41.4sec duration of effect is 2.2sec
Covert Ops module; Quantum Defence on my Wakizashi R, reload time 31.5sec duration 7 sec
Ecm module; Repair sabotage sys. on my Zen, reload time 22.5sec duration of effect is 6 sec + additional nerfs against opponents in range.
Gunship module; Aiming overcharge on my Spark, reload time 37.8sec duration of effect 9sec
Cov ops module; Pirate Orion TS on my Wakizashi R reload time 27sec duration of effect is 10sec.
Ecm modules; almost all give all kind of damage busts to ECM and nerfs against opponents in same time. reload time from 22.5-45 sec.
I will not write Tai’kins broken reload time of modules that should not even be on that ship. Ah, I will 9.9sec reload time on my Inhibitor crystal.
so much from balance here and OP from interceptors against anything else.
This is a type of comparison one would expect from somebody that just started playing, and not from the player being around for a while.
If you want to do a comparison, make sure you compare the whole thing and not just some taken out of the context entities.
10 hours ago, OwnageMaster said:
Your own screenshot from another game:
Blue team should steamroll the red team there if your hypothesis would be true…
My friend, more you post more I think you don’t know anything about this game.
Look at names on blue and read team. The blue team would not win even if all those players would use original Thar’ga ships and all red team would be in Lynx ships.
3 hours ago, xKostyan said:
This is a type of comparison one would expect from somebody that just started playing, and not from the player being around for a while.
If you want to do a comparison, make sure you compare the whole thing and not just some taken out of the context entities.
Perhaps you are right the comparison was not entire,
perhaps I can compare stats from my Spark gunship and my Zen ECM,
My Zen with some white passive modules have stats http://prntscr.com/l4xhwk
and my Spark has this; http://prntscr.com/l4xipy
both ships are made for PvP use
fastest reload time of my modules on Spark is 26.1 sec by default and the next one have 37.5s next one 41.5s and last one 61s
fastest reload time of my modules on Zen is 20.5sec next 21.5 sec next 28.5 sec and last one 31.5 sec
damage output of Zen weapon is 6100dmg/sec you can compare whit every Spark weapon and it will not match it.
Also don’t forget that Spark is gunship with 25% damage bonus and can’t compare with it.
My personal opinion is and I will say this again that balance is strongly in favor of small ships.
I know I fight here like Don Quixote against old stubborn and always same windmills here.
I guess stubbornness is on both sides here, Empire ships were never tanky, especially Spark, their main advantage was weapon damage, Jericho is the tankiest faction, and Zhen is a higher rank, and an ECM, which remember that they get 10% bonus to health cause they are a ship class that often gets focused, also, are you really going to compare weapons like Geyser and Front Blaster to any other weapons in term of damage output? Do I really need to explain it?
2 hours ago, GatoGrande said:
Perhaps you are right the comparison was not entire,
perhaps I can compare stats from my Spark gunship and my Zen ECM,
My Zen with some white passive modules have stats http://prntscr.com/l4xhwk
and my Spark has this; http://prntscr.com/l4xipy
both ships are made for PvP use
fastest reload time of my modules on Spark is 26.1 sec by default and the next one have 37.5s next one 41.5s and last one 61s
fastest reload time of my modules on Zen is 20.5sec next 21.5 sec next 28.5 sec and last one 31.5 sec
damage output of Zen weapon is 6100dmg/sec you can compare whit every Spark weapon and it will not match it.
Also don’t forget that Spark is gunship with 25% damage bonus and can’t compare with it.
My personal opinion is and I will say this again that balance is strongly in favor of small ships.
I know I fight here like Don Quixote against old stubborn and always same windmills here.
Your obsession with cropping every picture is beyond me…
Anyways
here is a comparison that highlights how out of context it can be, just like what you have
My Spark dps is 5000+ on an Ionemmiter while on my covops PlasmaGun does 1900 dps
Clearly GunShip is OP
See how stupid this comparison is? While numbers are true, they have next to zero meaning without a full picture. Your latest comparison is just like that.
3 hours ago, GatoGrande said:
My friend, more you post more I think you don’t know anything about this game.
shots fired.
On 10/9/2018 at 11:48 PM, xKostyan said:
Taikin has zero staying power on choke points, it can only come and go, the moment it takes a hit, god forbid it gets a DoT on while under healing reduction it’s pretty much out of the fight.
choke points aren’t really usual in pvp maps. we are not playing descent.
given its speed, taking it out also results in a fast comeback.
never said the taikin is the tanky ship, but it’s very good in distracting, and yet again, can do lots of damage. on its own it’s not a gamebreaker, except its an objective game.
but if you ever saw good players hunt in coordination with an able team, those taikins become scary AF.
also, out of the fight - until it returns to the healer and comes back. wow, big thing.
point is, no recon can do that. not even the cyning.
On 10/9/2018 at 11:48 PM, xKostyan said:
They don’t have more tank than a gunship, ECMs do have an easier time coming in and leaving, but they don’t do dmg in the process anywhere near gunships/commands levels
ecms combine good tank with the upside of ceptors. it is the most survivy role in most situation. always was the best pick for captain, or spearhead a gunship attack. in the past this was balanced by worse mobility, and less damage output than other ships.
a zhen with geyser has mobility, ecm tank, and firepower.
true, a gunship might outdamage it shortly - but it will pay the price usually.
i play same ships over and over since years, only adjusting the fits as its needed, i only judge tankyness by how long my enemy takes to die. i am also not a killfarmer or statwh0re, i am a damage dealer and support player. i even prefer if others get kills, leaves me less obvious for retaliation. so thats my opinion, and i am not really asking questions, if you got a different opinion, you of all people know what to do with it, rite? :P
On 10/10/2018 at 7:15 PM, GatoGrande said:
if you would like one tier NP, make all ships be the same rank and make all ships cost same ( credits, time to level, other resources)
and make all ships be accessible from start. Make them all use all crew implants and erase modules and weapons by rank, let then be just one same module-weapon rank that can be used for all ships in the class.
This would actually be better for new players, all grinding for new higher rank modules will be not needed.
why should they cost the same?
a comparable arena game is mwo. not all robots there cost the same. still, all of them are in the same arena. tiers are only different in meta, because the skill of players is different. higher skilled players prefer precision weapons and have better teamplay, deeper knowledge, better reflexes. low rank players like long range missile spam. you adjust to the meta as you go.
now they have an IP, so of course, people already know a lot about the units in the game. they also have streamers, and a mostly competitive mindset, so uncomparable to our mix of pve casuals, and wannabes which stay in this game, because it’s the only one they feel good in. presenting a new player a list of robots however is very confusing at start, i had to read tons of wikis to understand what the hell is going on. that is not very new player friendly at all.
- ship trees.
now a ship tree comes out of PvE games, and was first tried by world of tanks. and planes in warthunder. it worked, because it’s historical. a biplane does not meet jets. historical evolution of tanks actually makes a lot of sense, it was basicly done “real life”. star conflict however is not based on history. it just does not work in the setting. it was too visible from the start, that all the ranks are only there to make people grind, and all values just go linearly up.
tier systems did not work, because the lowest rank of the tier was never used. players went down tiers to farm new players. it only worked as long as t3 was the main tier for vets, t4 the playground for beta vets, and t2 for newcomers. as soon as t5 hit the shelves, everything started to crumble.
mixing tiers a bit did also not work, because the difference between an unbuffed t3 and t4 ship is quite big. the difference between a t4 and a t5 ship is huge. increasing slots to 9 on most ships, and allowing all implants to be used by all players in the battle came a lot later, even later than low rank buffs.
but in the basics i do agree with you that it would have been the better plan, and might have been even a better plan to rework the game before adding more cr4p to it.
but imho they are too afraid to lose the last of the playerbase, and have gotten used to tell themselves the excuse, that people are going to complain “anyway”, so why actually innovate.
10 minutes ago, g4borg said:
choke points aren’t really usual in pvp maps. we are not playing descent.
given its speed, taking it out also results in a fast comeback.
never said the taikin is the tanky ship, but it’s very good in distracting, and yet again, can do lots of damage. on its own it’s not a gamebreaker, except its an objective game.
but if you ever saw good players hunt in coordination with an able team, those taikins become scary AF.
also, out of the fight - until it returns to the healer and comes back. wow, big thing.
We have had this discussion in details what 3-4 times by now? Nothing changed since then, except that everything else got stronger. Sorry but I am not going to write all that stuff again, maybe I’ll copypasta some of it later, maybe not.
18 minutes ago, g4borg said:
point is, no recon can do that. not even the cyning.
1
False.
The main source of Taikin dmg is relying on it’s Em torps, since his weapons hardly carry a punch, except slow balls vs Frigates, most of the times other Recons can do same or more amount of dmg due to their main guns + ability to stay in the fight + some of the new modules, like AOE -50 hull resistance, or even a simple SpyDrone that Taikins can’t carry (because he has no active slots for that or he becomes total garbage) plus CPU’s-> Crits that Cyning and Leonina/Berserks can use while taikin is stuck with 1 CPU (and he still need Proton wall or 8-2) regular recons can equip EM torps as well.
23 minutes ago, g4borg said:
ecms combine good tank with the upside of ceptors. it is the most survivy role in most situation. always was the best pick for captain, or spearhead a gunship attack. in the past this was balanced by worse mobility, and less damage output than other ships.
a zhen with geyser has mobility, ecm tank, and firepower.
true, a gunship might outdamage it shortly - but it will pay the price usually.
10
In the “past” only EMpire ECMs struggled with mobility, while t5 Jerico was ~470-500, the difference now is that they can carry a speed buff/anti slow - which is really great mobility boost, but don’t forget that ECMs always carried 3 control modules + heal, now they carry 2 control modules but more mobile. Agility wise nothing changed.
Zhen has geyser, that has, what, 8-10 degrees of fire and abysmal projectile speed and 2.1 km range (you can use proj speed ammo + 6-3 implant to hit short of 5km/s, which would be ok if not for the fact that it gonna lose even more dmg to that) and it only has 1 CPU, Geyser has some nice numbers on paper, but it’s only good vs Frigates, even Shrapnels better vs fighters and smaller. Karud with almost any gun does more dmg than Zhen with a geyser.
1 hour ago, g4borg said:
shots fired.
Nahh. I give up. He was flying his OP ship against my 2k HP taikin. Or actually I was flying straight not even trying to dodge for 4 km (almost 11 seconds) and he wasn’t able to hit me with his OP Wakizashi R and Deconstructor cannon. That’s the superior interceptor pilot? That cannot be the person I thought he is, it has to be some beginner who doesn’t know how to aim and how to dodge in interceptors. Not even going about tactical thinking. So - sorry - I just have to put this person in the same drawer as Dr_Death and TAZ - making a lots of noise about nothing, hence I cannot now distinguish is what is he writing is his own fantasy or maybe someone told him something. At the beginning I was verifying his claims, doing some tests with multiple people including some testers. 90% of time what he was saying was complete and utter nonsense. Even in this thread:
Quote
Small ships have so much advantage against any other class that it is pointless to play anything else.
And in another thread he is posting a screenshot that 8 player team with 6 interceptors lost a game vs team with 2 interceptors. So are those interceptors OP or not? From the sentence above - anyone flying interceptors should have total advantage. And then he contradicts himself. More and more I am reading those revelations it looks like someone new just came to the game, logged into that account and is posting crap based on what is written in the stats. No way in hell that person I known to have this account would go that sour and created those threads just to get some attention (because let’s face it - their educational value is exactly zero).
If he wants to be in centre of attention - his problem. I am playing this game for fun and I was still hoping to find some new cool builds or tactics on this forum. Instead it just became a temple of whining. I have much better things to do than to participate in those delusional activities.
On 10/9/2018 at 1:40 PM, GatoGrande said:
Small ships have so much advantage against any other class that it is pointless to play anything else.
5 hours ago, xKostyan said:
This is T3 tournament in full wings where everyone is on TS.
This is much different than regular PvP and when you queue alone.
Also if you see how many squads are at the tournament in the past few weeks than you know how many are that organized.
But in regular PvP, you get different picture. You should try it alone not in squad and post stream after that game.
42 minutes ago, GatoGrande said:
This is T3 tournament in full wings where everyone is on TS.
Oh so T3 ships are weak now?
And 4th video is a Brawl CTB, where “swarms of taikins would just roll everyone up”, yet you see 1-2 interceptors as supports all the time
38 minutes ago, GatoGrande said:
This is much different than regular PvP and when you queue alone.
And since when organized full wings of better pilots are not using the best tools available? The biggest difference between tourneys and random PvP is exactly that, strive to win using the best available tools, yet you see 1-2 interceptors on 8 man teams.
8 hours ago, xKostyan said:
Oh so T3 ships are weak now?
Did I say that? I just said it is not the same as regular PvP with max rang ships when you queue alone.
8 hours ago, xKostyan said:
And 4th video is a Brawl CTB, where “swarms of taikins would just roll everyone up”, yet you see 1-2 interceptors as supports all the time
2
It is but when you have Neytron on one side and Gladiator on other side nothing is simple and regular.
If you ever played with both of them in same squad or wing like I did you would know.
Also, this mode was capping all enemy beacons or destroy all enemy ships so fair picture of this would be to see all ships that they have.
But in one aspect this last video is spectacular, we all can see one of the best Destroyer players in the game that actually know how to play with it.
8 hours ago, xKostyan said:
And since when organized full wings of better pilots are not using the best tools available? The biggest difference between tourneys and random PvP is exactly that, strive to win using the best available tools, yet you see 1-2 interceptors on 8 man teams.
It is big difference in one aspect when you play in an organized squad-wing you are certain that you have in recent time two Waz’gots that will heal you.
When you have two Waz’gots in team that is using TS everything can survive even slow empire gunships if team is good of course.
Taikins are nearly unhittable by conventional weaponry, but they can get coutered by guard frigs effectively enough. One of the main issues of that ship isnt exclusive to the taikin though. It is the Inhibitor crystal + cloak combo which is bothering me. The sattelite crystal is a bit frustrating aswell. The Inhibitor Crystal should be cancelled as soon as the host is cloaking. Sattelite crystal needs a weaker slowing effect and maybe some cooldowns need to be stretched. Taikins are not dominating the game, but they do have an edge.
Of course that only sums up my experiance with them and is therefore highly subjective.