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Fix Zeta.


talvi3967
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Another futile attempt to get the devs to try and save their own game...

 

Zeta, or aspects of the ship, needs a massive nerf. Obviously it shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, I don't have any problem with it remaining the most powerful destroyer, and one of the most powerful ships overall. Currently it is simply OP though, as OP as no other ship has ever been during my time in this game (I understand that Tharga was even more OP upon release but that was before my time). Even ships that are or have been frequently complained about such as Wolfhound, Taikin or Stingray are nothing compared to Zeta.

No matter what type of PvP, the team with more endgame (all or most nodes unlocked) Zetas will win. Always. (And it doesn't even require skill - there are plenty of pilots out there who get absolutely annihilated by every other player no matter what ship they are flying - until they get out their Zeta, and suddenly they are the king of the match.)

 

1) Plasma Burster. Range far too high. Damage too high (and that's without the extra effects the weapon has). Has EM damage for synergy with Photon Emitter, which no other viable dessie weapon has (GTharDu and Halo are useless in pvp).

2) Crystaline Suppressor. It has received a small nerf recently (flight speed reduced by quite a lot). But it's still too fast. You know that powerful long-range skill dessies have, called Photon Emitter? It's so strong every dessie has it equipped, even if they don't use EM weapons. Yeah, CS still flies at 3 times the speed while doing way more damage. You can evade a PE shot even with a bulky LRF, no chance of evading CS even with a nimble interceptor. Getting hit by PE hurts, getting hit by CS is a oneshot for most ships. Nerf that thing. Hard.

3) Mobility. Zeta is way too fast for a dessie. In addition to that, it has tele sphere. This combination allows it to pretty much ignore the only defensive weaknesses the dessie class has: getting locked down in place by Gravi Lens or similar, and things like plasma arc or stingray overdrive.

4) Regeneration/Resistances. Zeta has way too much of both. If you get any other dessie down to 50% HP, they remain heavily damaged for a long time. If you get a Zeta down to 50% HP, it teleports and flies away, then returns a few seconds later at full HP.

5) Swarm (in attack mode). Swarm is way too fast, way too mobile, deals far too much damage, the collision effect is OP. It's hard to track as it doesn't have an icon on the radar. "Killing" it isn't even rewarding. Depending on how the dessie pilot uses that swarm (via spec module, or via Swarm Control), the dessie itself can either still shoot and move as usual while the swarm does its thing, or it heals up rapidly while the swarm does its thing. That's simply too much.

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36 minutes ago, talvi3967 said:

Another futile attempt to get the devs to try and save their own game...

 

Zeta, or aspects of the ship, needs a massive nerf. Obviously it shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, I don't have any problem with it remaining the most powerful destroyer, and one of the most powerful ships overall. Currently it is simply OP though, as OP as no other ship has ever been during my time in this game (I understand that Tharga was even more OP upon release but that was before my time). Even ships that are or have been frequently complained about such as Wolfhound, Taikin or Stingray are nothing compared to Zeta.

No matter what type of PvP, the team with more endgame (all or most nodes unlocked) Zetas will win. Always. (And it doesn't even require skill - there are plenty of pilots out there who get absolutely annihilated by every other player no matter what ship they are flying - until they get out their Zeta, and suddenly they are the king of the match.)

 

1) Plasma Burster. Range far too high. Damage too high (and that's without the extra effects the weapon has). Has EM damage for synergy with Photon Emitter, which no other viable dessie weapon has (GTharDu and Halo are useless in pvp).

2) Crystaline Suppressor. It has received a small nerf recently (flight speed reduced by quite a lot). But it's still too fast. You know that powerful long-range skill dessies have, called Photon Emitter? It's so strong every dessie has it equipped, even if they don't use EM weapons. Yeah, CS still flies at 3 times the speed while doing way more damage. You can evade a PE shot even with a bulky LRF, no chance of evading CS even with a nimble interceptor. Getting hit by PE hurts, getting hit by CS is a oneshot for most ships. Nerf that thing. Hard.

3) Mobility. Zeta is way too fast for a dessie. In addition to that, it has tele sphere. This combination allows it to pretty much ignore the only defensive weaknesses the dessie class has: getting locked down in place by Gravi Lens or similar, and things like plasma arc or stingray overdrive.

4) Regeneration/Resistances. Zeta has way too much of both. If you get any other dessie down to 50% HP, they remain heavily damaged for a long time. If you get a Zeta down to 50% HP, it teleports and flies away, then returns a few seconds later at full HP.

5) Swarm (in attack mode). Swarm is way too fast, way too mobile, deals far too much damage, the collision effect is OP. It's hard to track as it doesn't have an icon on the radar. "Killing" it isn't even rewarding. Depending on how the dessie pilot uses that swarm (via spec module, or via Swarm Control), the dessie itself can either still shoot and move as usual while the swarm does its thing, or it heals up rapidly while the swarm does its thing. That's simply too much.

You don't have Ze'ta, do you? 

Quote

No matter what type of PvP, the team with more endgame (all or most nodes unlocked) Zetas will win. Always. (And it doesn't even require skill - there are plenty of pilots out there who get absolutely annihilated by every other player no matter what ship they are flying - until they get out their Zeta, and suddenly they are the king of the match.)

Do you have any proper examples/recording? Because in high level seccon deploying multiple Ze'tas is basically forfeiting the match as they are going down in ~7-8 seconds if there is a pair of gunships on the other side.
 

1) Plasma Burster - it can be equipped on any destroyer. It's not Ze'ta exclusive
2) Crystalline Suppressor - someone somewhere pushed for making this module an offensive one. It still can be dodged on most light ships. Or that's my impression anyways. I'm usually making 2-3 times more kills with Kai than with CS... So should we nerf Kai as well?
3) The only thing I agree with that statement is that teleportation sphere shouldn't be Ze'ta exclusive. Other dessies could benefit from similar module as well. Also if Ze'ta is using TS it's basically a red flag for all inties and fighters on the other side to zero on that ship. It's usually going down 10 seconds later. 

4) Actually Ze'ta hull regeneration is not that fast. If you fly away and let it heal itself without using any modules/shooting etc  it's up to 600 points/second without repair drones 1020 with. Sirius can heal with 1260 per second and still be able to shoot and use it's modules. If you want to use modules or shoot without repair drones you are stuck with up to 400 points per second (using modules and draining the capacitor to 75% basically halves that). Don't forget Ze'ta is inherently very hard to heal by the engineer. Vigilant that can be build with much more resists and 80% larger HP pool than Ze'ta can be healed twice as fast (hence it's often used as an defence platform - with all it's dmg boosts and tankines it's a primary anti fighter platform). Tyrant can regen even faster and can insta kill any light ship.

5)Swarm Control should be removed. Period. Ze'ta is mostly fine, but this module is just wrong. In spec module mode swarm isn't that effective, it's role is mostly auxiliary. 

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Definitely this is a troll-post, with some sort of agenda.

You only have 21 nodes unlocked on Zeta, out of the 44, so not even half.

So this makes you really not fit to talk about it on a serious note. You can't say you fly a Zeta and understand it when you have it less than 50% developed.

I also am willing to bet you don't have 100 pvp matches with it, you mostly fly Wolfhound and recently Executor. 

So if you don't have the skills to kill a Zeta, why try to change it? 

Lol.

 

All modules are fine on Zeta now. Just remember the other mods dessies have, like the Cluster torp. Should someone press to mutate it to Zeta? Or take the Microwave emitter from Emperor and fit it on Zeta? :) Since we are talking about inter-changing mods. It's enough that other dessies can now use the Landing platform - which came from Zeta. Why more 'cross-breeding'? 

 

Edit: I am 100% upset about the recent nerf of the CS. Why was it needed, who asked to slow it down by 50%? No logic there.

 

 

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9 hours ago, talvi3967 said:

) Plasma Burster. Range far too high. Damage too high (and that's without the extra effects the weapon has). Has EM damage for synergy with Photon Emitter, which no other viable dessie weapon has (GTharDu and Halo are useless in pvp).

This is where the misunderstanding begins.

Plasma burster is a garbage weapon against anything but Frigates and Destroyers.

 

Against Destroyers the dominance of the weapon is down to two things. Range and the 167% cloud damage modifier against Destroyers.
Against Frigates it's simply because they're vulnerable to the same kinds of hits but with less HP.

 

9 hours ago, talvi3967 said:

3) Mobility. Zeta is way too fast for a dessie. In addition to that, it has tele sphere. This combination allows it to pretty much ignore the only defensive weaknesses the dessie class has: getting locked down in place by Gravi Lens or similar, and things like plasma arc or stingray overdrive.

Not really. Ze'ta sits at the pre-nerf speed values honestly. Both Federation and Ellydium should have 200 at minimum, Jericho and Empire should be 160-170 at minimum honestly.
base Fast Swarm at 267m/s is just the right speed to move around the map unhindered and if a plasma arc wasn't a threat of instant death it would actually be viable to move around with the aid of teleportation sphere or wormhole projector.

 

9 hours ago, talvi3967 said:

2) Crystaline Suppressor. It has received a small nerf recently (flight speed reduced by quite a lot). But it's still too fast. You know that powerful long-range skill dessies have, called Photon Emitter? It's so strong every dessie has it equipped, even if they don't use EM weapons. Yeah, CS still flies at 3 times the speed while doing way more damage. You can evade a PE shot even with a bulky LRF, no chance of evading CS even with a nimble interceptor. Getting hit by PE hurts, getting hit by CS is a oneshot for most ships. Nerf that thing. Hard.

The projectile speed nerf was an unintended buff actually as crystalline suppressor can be manually detonated - the nerf just made it easier to splash targets.

The main issue that has been discussed at lenght a multitude of times with suppressor is that all the explosive projectiles spawn at the center of the explosion - meaning that if you are directly hit you eat typically at least half of them. That's half if 16 projectiles that all do 6,305 damage each.

 

If the projectiles had either an arming time like EM torps or just spawned further apart it wouldn't be as bad.

 

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4 hours ago, DaCookiez said:

Edit: I am 100% upset about the recent nerf of the CS. Why was it needed, who asked to slow it down by 50%? No logic there.

It was op as hell, less cooldown than most other modules and could instakill almost every ship class without any real need to aim it.

 

wHy WaS iT NeEdEd?

 

But serously Zeta is still by far the best destroyer, should be nerfed more.

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4 hours ago, Neoncreeper1MEDK said:

It was op as hell, less cooldown than most other modules and could instakill almost every ship class without any real need to aim it.

 

wHy WaS iT NeEdEd?

 

But serously Zeta is still by far the best destroyer, should be nerfed more.

I agree it was effective and efficient, not that it was op. What was really op was the Relic's Cluster torp, esp. in sector conquest. That was real op, not the CS. Why?

Because when we talk about op we should consider 2 things:

1. the ship / module;

2. the skills of that pilot. And this is where a small number of pilots (those with enough talent, intelligence and awareness) will use it to its full potential. The other vast part, they can fit it, but they will not have that much impact in battle because of the skill lack. This is why i don't agree with this nerf, i consider it superficial and frustrating. And one more reason: if a ship is meant to be number 1 (because it is the best) why bother nerfing it (instead of simply treat if with caution and test your skills to try to kill it)? 

 

I am sure there are lots and lots of pilots who reject this nerf, simply because they could kill a Zeta fitted with CS. How about them, did any dev bother to ask for their opinion? Does their opinion matter or do they simply have to shut up and accept it? :)

 

Nerfing basically means causing something to be weak or ineffective. So, a way of destroying that ship or module. Like... really??

 

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Do not touch the Zeta or the destroyer modules, I'm tired of seeing a few people complain that it is broken or unbalanced, if they do not know how to use it it is their problem, practice it or not. Regarding the Ze'ta, they are horribly nerfed, first they take away the resistance and speed of the fast swarm, then they nerf the Crystalline Suppressor and the repellent drone. Crystalline Suppressor and Blaster turret are now being nerfed again. Likewise, they are nerfing the Emperor and other expensive ships. Stop nerfing things or you'll lose players and sales (no one wants to buy a nerfed Emperor or Scylla).

 

As the pilot of various ships, I request that you return to the Ze'ta as it was before. That is, return your extra points of resistance, speed (fast swarm) and the deceleration effect of the blaster turret, since the extra damage (30%) of pirate weapons will be lethal for destroyers and those who say that these destroyers are Indestructible, it is actually very fragile, another thing is that they do not know how to use it properly, I challenge them to a 1 vs 1 and they will see how my fighters will finish off their Ze'ta.

 

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Zeta simp identified

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8 hours ago, VanHel said:

Do not touch the Zeta or the destroyer modules, I'm tired of seeing a few people complain that it is broken or unbalanced, if they do not know how to use it it is their problem, practice it or not. Regarding the Ze'ta, they are horribly nerfed, first they take away the resistance and speed of the fast swarm, then they nerf the Crystalline Suppressor and the repellent drone. Crystalline Suppressor and Blaster turret are now being nerfed again. Likewise, they are nerfing the Emperor and other expensive ships.

 

As the pilot of various ships, I request that you return to the Ze'ta as it was before. That is, return your extra points of resistance, speed (fast swarm) and the deceleration effect of the blaster turret, since the extra damage (30%) of pirate weapons will be lethal for destroyers and those who say that these destroyers are Indestructible, it is actually very fragile, another thing is that they do not know how to use it properly, I challenge them to a 1 vs 1 and they will see how my fighters will finish off their Ze'ta.

Just no, nerf is definetly deserved.

Emperor didnt even get nerfed yet.

 

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6 hours ago, Neoncreeper1MEDK said:

Just no, nerf is definetly deserved.

Emperor didnt even get nerfed yet.

 

I saw you play with ze'ta, and you don't know how to use it, I don't know why you ask a ship for nerf that makes it very useful, if you don't know how to use it, don't give your opinion.

Besides, it seems like you're the only one asking for nerf

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6 hours ago, VanHel said:

I saw you play with ze'ta, and you don't know how to use it,

Yes of course...

 

Im Mister "i get offended when my op ship (i dont need to play any other ship in the game)" gets nerfed.

 

It's still by far the best destroyer.

Whats your point? 

 

It has the most resists, is the fastest, has the best regen, really good weapons and one of the best active modules.

 

To top it off, it has all these benefits at the same time.

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I'm the one who thought Ze'ta = hard to break, but not anymore.

I'm not very good at operating fighter (actually bad at), but still can pick up a fight with Ze'ta .
Of course, I cannot win every single Ze'ta, but can make it hurt.
The only thing you should avoid is getting hit by Crystal Suppressor or Sudden Photon Emitter burst.
Meaning that if someone is really good at operating fighter, he can hunt down Ze'ta very easily. 
Ze'ta is fragile, I can guarantee you.
 

7 hours ago, Neoncreeper1MEDK said:

 

It has the most resists, is the fastest, has the best regen, really good weapons and one of the best active modules.

 


If this is the fact, then other destroyers are not viable to current PvP, and some are "unplayable"
Then we should talk about buffing other low-rank destroyers not nerfing Ze'ta.

The only problem of destroyer in current PvP is that both teams pick "A swarm of destroyers", and that makes people feel like "Destroyer = Unbreakable".

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3 hours ago, SilverIris said:

I'm the one who thought Ze'ta = hard to break, but not anymore.

I'm not very good at operating fighter (actually bad at), but still can pick up a fight with Ze'ta .
Of course, I cannot win every single Ze'ta, but can make it hurt.
The only thing you should avoid is getting hit by Crystal Suppressor or Sudden Photon Emitter burst.
Meaning that if someone is really good at operating fighter, he can hunt down Ze'ta very easily. 
Ze'ta is fragile, I can guarantee you.
 


If this is the fact, then other destroyers are not viable to current PvP, and some are "unplayable"
Then we should talk about buffing other low-rank destroyers not nerfing Ze'ta.

The only problem of destroyer in current PvP is that both teams pick "A swarm of destroyers", and that makes people feel like "Destroyer = Unbreakable".

Finally some wise words.

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Ok. Someone come up a point in game and I write down here.

"Players pick Ze'ta, Relic, Emperor a lot since they are easy to learn hard to kill. And that's why current PvP meta is swarm of destroyer."

=> Yes and no. In current PvP, it is hard to see players who pick ECMs, which are real counters of destroyers.
Ecms are small targets hard to hit + Ion diffuser make destoryer doom ( Especially in Emperor, by one single button, you can destroy Emperor's turret)
Plus, if Ecms have system hack they can hack destroyer's gravity lens. (Very useful if enemy destroyer put gravity lens on the beacon)

Destroyer is actually not easy to learn. You have to think about your position very carefully.
If you are too close, fighters and Ecms will melt you in seconds, if you are too far away, you cannot use your module effectively.
Because of restricted gun angle, you have to angle it right or the firepower would decrease more than half or so.
( Meaning if you approach at destroyers, you should approach their deadspot, not from the side, and I see few people doing that)
Plus if destroyer module is destroyed, destroyer gets extra damage, meaning you have to go destroyer modules first, not its hull.
Hint: If you don't know where the destroyer module is located, then pick up a weapon that does a aoe damage.
Also, you have to calculate when to retreat and when to push, since destroyer is not that fast, and big juicy target which everyone wants to shoot at.

+ Destroyer also have to consider using their module carefully, for example, gravity lens pull not only enemies but also allies, meaning if you play wrong, you can kill your allies by making them easy target.
Destroyer is not a sitting duck that only have to press 1,2,3,4 and F button. People feel destroyer as hard brick, because lack of ECMs and a swarm of destroyers meta disguises players as strong unbreakable stuff.


" Why don't we just nerf 3 destroyers instead of restricting total destroyer numbers?"

=> Yes we nerfed Ze'ta very hard, and Emperor, Relic are going to nerf in someday.
Does it change the current meta? No.
That's what Devs are struggling at. 3 destroyers are very weak when they are alone, but if they gather like 5 or so, they are turning into hard brick.
So if Devs nerf 3 destroyers hard, as you expect, people would not play destroyer, but destroyers itself would go into funeral as other low tier destroyers.
And nobody wants to see making specific rule into total useless right? 

This is why we are talking about changing MMs, not nerfing Ze'ta or other R17 destroyers.


If you have something to say about my op, please comment below.

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You're absolutely right,

There is no problems with destroyers quality, but with quantity and everyone who thinks "ZeTa iS bAd NeRf It PlZ" don't really know what they are talking about.

More nerfs will only make this class even less useable than guards, because what? Because some noobz don't know how to deal with zeta? Then they should LEARN how to do it, not cry and complain about how bad zeta is just because they was killed a few times, coz they don't know how to use strafes or counters.

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@talvi3967and about you I remember when you tried to kill me using HAMMERHEAD in SECCON

1. You was using this for real or just for a joke? This ship is useless in seccon 

2. Do you really think that any ANY engineer can kill a dessie? especially zeta? Well maybe wazgot with gravi-wave but it's not very reliable tactics, but any other can do just NOTHING agains any dessie, coz it's NOT a dessie counter

 

People like you should have no vote about any destroyers balance until they understand how to deal with this class and maybe how to pilot it to make them know how it looks in the other side.

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