BruTosGali

Why is the game in bad shape

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10 hours ago, BruTosGali said:

So it is the worst mode...after spaceball

No, it's enjoyable. Bots are much better organized than most of the players, however they don't have much of intelligence - so you can learn how to outsmart them. Most of the tactics work in PvP as well, but since bots have better ships than players, you have to concentrate on what are you doing, which will help in higher difficulty games like sector conquest. In my opinion from worst to best:

spaceball, random pvp, specops (destroyer only - I enjoy defiler and somehow like the RtE, destroyer is just boring), PvE (too repetitive), rest of specops, leagues, VsAI, brawls, seccon. 

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Bots maybe organised but players in that mode dont need to be. Bot actions are predictable and it all comes down to shooting behind covers and farming them with destros. Which leads to repetitivenes also. That mode is not demanding and usefull in way that you said, cos it serves its purpose for practise, but no real enjoyment there.

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Often happens that MM is not working in your favour, but lack of player organization in random PvP can be mitigated by flying in squads. There is nothing that can make PvAI more interesting.

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On 11/27/2019 at 1:14 PM, BruTosGali said:

Bots maybe organised but players in that mode dont need to be. Bot actions are predictable and it all comes down to shooting behind covers and farming them with destros. Which leads to repetitivenes also. That mode is not demanding and usefull in way that you said, cos it serves its purpose for practise, but no real enjoyment there.

If you play that mode as you described - flying dessie and shooting stuff behind cover - then you are practising flying dessie and shooting behind the cover - nothing less, nothing more. I prefer more active sessions with dogfights, exploiting weak spots and so on. And AI ships have the very same weak spots as player ships, builds that work in PvP will work in vs AI, so no, I fly dessie there only if I feel flying dessie (and I hate staying in cover with dessie - usually I'm in the middle of the map). My go to ships are guard, gunship and recon, but tbh I feel comfy in most roles in that mode. If I feel it's repetitive I'm just trying different approach to this mode (builds, classes etc), which to my surprise - work also in PvP. 

We went with 3 people squad to get some random PvP games and it was just like swatting flies. Almost no challenge. I tried some solo PvPs and no - thank you. I didn't find it enjoyable. I had to carry the team or we were winning by a huge margin. From my notes - I lost 3 games out of 27 that it took me to do the Ze'ta bp task. One of them ended the second I went out of warp, one ended 17 seconds later, one was lost in pretty balanced battle (2v2+ 6 bots). Did I enjoy that experience? Not really.

So as you can see - to each his own.

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3 hours ago, OwnageMaster said:

If you play that mode as you described - flying dessie and shooting stuff behind cover - then you are practising flying dessie and shooting behind the cover - nothing less, nothing more. I prefer more active sessions with dogfights, exploiting weak spots and so on. And AI ships have the very same weak spots as player ships, builds that work in PvP will work in vs AI, so no, I fly dessie there only if I feel flying dessie (and I hate staying in cover with dessie - usually I'm in the middle of the map). My go to ships are guard, gunship and recon, but tbh I feel comfy in most roles in that mode. If I feel it's repetitive I'm just trying different approach to this mode (builds, classes etc), which to my surprise - work also in PvP. 

We went with 3 people squad to get some random PvP games and it was just like swatting flies. Almost no challenge. I tried some solo PvPs and no - thank you. I didn't find it enjoyable. I had to carry the team or we were winning by a huge margin. From my notes - I lost 3 games out of 27 that it took me to do the Ze'ta bp task. One of them ended the second I went out of warp, one ended 17 seconds later, one was lost in pretty balanced battle (2v2+ 6 bots). Did I enjoy that experience? Not really.

So as you can see - to each his own.

I dont fly dessies. So you are going to open dogfights against bot Thargas and lazor frigates and their ships have the same weak spots as player ships? Yeah,right. 

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20 hours ago, BruTosGali said:

I dont fly dessies. So you are going to open dogfights against bot Thargas and lazor frigates and their ships have the same weak spots as player ships? 

Yes, why? You have problems with killing them? AI frigates have the same blind spots as player frigates, Thar'ga is just R5 Tharga on steroids.  

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12 hours ago, OwnageMaster said:

Yes, why? You have problems with killing them? AI frigates have the same blind spots as player frigates, Thar'ga is just R5 Tharga on steroids.  

Cos players dogfighting bots are dead in 5 seconds? Cos eliminating one bot frigate or any other bot ship takes much longer then killing player frigate? Cos while you' re doing dogfighting one bot the rest of your team gets killed? Cos while you try approaching and staying in their blind side there are others that melt you with lazors? No, I dont have problems killing them, I just find your viewpoint hard to believe. Also I find it not interesting cos it lacks that personal component that Star Conflict game and PvP are/were based upon.

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5 hours ago, BruTosGali said:

Cos players dogfighting bots are dead in 5 seconds? Cos eliminating one bot frigate or any other bot ship takes much longer then killing player frigate? Cos while you' re doing dogfighting one bot the rest of your team gets killed? Cos while you try approaching and staying in their blind side there are others that melt you with lazors? No, I dont have problems killing them, I just find your viewpoint hard to believe. 

Are you one of the pilots that try to tank beam cannon frigate with stationary interceptor staying in front of them? Because I find it hard to believe you cannot drop their tracking in agile ship. Also if you team failed to disperse them and they are focusing on a single target, make sure you have a guard in your lineup. Simple as it is. Maybe you have some issues with your builds or something - dunno. You sound like a vet - you should figure it out. 

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I really wouldnt know how a vet sounds. But, I ve been here long enough to see better days of SC, before destroyesr and PvAI. So, I dont have issues with my builds or going frontal at lazor frigs.  Sometimes I have issues with my internet connection and  I always have issues with the things i didnt see. And I never saw players outmanouver lazor bots (except flying away out of range or behind cover) and at the same time manage to kill one of them in open dogfight. You are the first I heard saying that it is possible. Maybe its cos i dont play that mode much I also never saw squads in PvAI.

5 hours ago, OwnageMaster said:

Are you one of the pilots that try to tank beam cannon frigate with stationary interceptor staying in front of them? Because I find it hard to believe you cannot drop their tracking in agile ship. Also if you team failed to disperse them and they are focusing on a single target, make sure you have a guard in your lineup. Simple as it is. Maybe you have some issues with your builds or something - dunno. You sound like a vet - you should figure it out. 

 

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10 minutes ago, BruTosGali said:

And I never saw players outmanouver lazor bots (except flying away out of range or behind cover) and at the same time manage to kill one of them in open dogfight. 

 

It is possible - there is an added tracking delay - so as long as you don't fly straight they won't touch you if you have enough agility Also - LRFs have blind spots that only one turret can barely reach you. 

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Same guy answering. Still counts as only one.

2 hours ago, niripas said:

It is possible - there is an added tracking delay - so as long as you don't fly straight they won't touch you if you have enough agility Also - LRFs have blind spots that only one turret can barely reach you. 

 

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On 11/28/2019 at 10:21 PM, OwnageMaster said:

If you play that mode as you described - flying dessie and shooting stuff behind cover - then you are practising flying dessie and shooting behind the cover - nothing less, nothing more. I prefer more active sessions with dogfights, exploiting weak spots and so on. And AI ships have the very same weak spots as player ships, builds that work in PvP will work in vs AI, so no, I fly dessie there only if I feel flying dessie (and I hate staying in cover with dessie - usually I'm in the middle of the map). My go to ships are guard, gunship and recon, but tbh I feel comfy in most roles in that mode. If I feel it's repetitive I'm just trying different approach to this mode (builds, classes etc), which to my surprise - work also in PvP. 

We went with 3 people squad to get some random PvP games and it was just like swatting flies. Almost no challenge. I tried some solo PvPs and no - thank you. I didn't find it enjoyable. I had to carry the team or we were winning by a huge margin. From my notes - I lost 3 games out of 27 that it took me to do the Ze'ta bp task. One of them ended the second I went out of warp, one ended 17 seconds later, one was lost in pretty balanced battle (2v2+ 6 bots). Did I enjoy that experience? Not really.

So as you can see - to each his own.

Using your alt to prove your point?Nice trick,mate. But it doesnt help the game. Figure that one.

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3 hours ago, BruTosGali said:

Using your alt to prove your point?Nice trick,mate. But it doesnt help the game. Figure that one.

It doesn't matter, mate. I can show you some videos if you don't believe me. SS from yesterday - I was trying Orca's build for tharga with small modification in engine setup:

 

Spoiler

screenshot-191130-221632.jpg

 

LR Ions, most kills against enemy frigates. Forgot to press record, but have combat log to prove it if you want. Didn't even die once. Just for fun - I found out I can 1v1 ai Thar'ga in Berserker, so... It is possible. 

I can post a T4 frigate gameplay if you want, where I was trying to get killed, staying literally the whole game in the middle of the map, no cover, nothing. Well - I failed. 

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46 minutes ago, niripas said:

It doesn't matter, mate. I can show you some videos if you don't believe me. SS from yesterday - I was trying Orca's build for tharga with small modification in engine setup:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

screenshot-191130-221632.jpg

 

LR Ions, most kills against enemy frigates. Forgot to press record, but have combat log to prove it if you want. Didn't even die once. Just for fun - I found out I can 1v1 ai Thar'ga in Berserker, so... It is possible. 

I can post a T4 frigate gameplay if you want, where I was trying to get killed, staying literally the whole game in the middle of the map, no cover, nothing. Well - I failed. 

 


Despite the fact that the AI game mode, to me, its a drag and only once a day for the purple bonus, might be enjoyable by some players. No argument there, but 1st some isn't the majority and as I already said find it a drag - no reason to list why, and 2nd the AI mode isn't the topic of this thread. For once more a thread starts and derails along the way, skipping the essence/subject and deals with a million issues that are perhaps relevant but not on point.

 

I would say, if we're to talk worse game mode, the new fashion [and call it that way cos it might have been here but never overused] with the 3 friendly/3 nme beacons. Like I've already mentioned, for every 10 pvp games I play the 6 or perhaps 7 are this mode. Not only find it boring due to the repetition but also not fun to play. This is how I feel about it and no matter what some may say will not change my mind, each individual have their own preferences. No idea who's fixing the game modes nor who programs the rotation and of course no idea whether it is intended to be that way or the rotation is simply broken and no1 wants to deal with it. Perhaps someone likes that mode and thought that repetition will ultimately make players to like it, if so that is WRONG. Of course, wrong would also be if any of the previous applies here.

 

Although this is not the place to make a reference to a bug, I'll just put 2 words in what happened yesterday at a pvp map. Apologies for not remembering the map's name, its a 3 beacon hunt map, A is in the cave. While was trying to cap B [under a rock mountain] I found my ship IN the texture [in the rock] and unable to get out. There is no longer the option to self destruct and I did not want to leave the game, so I stayed the rest of the time struggling to figure out how to leave but no avail. A player from the enemy team whispered to me with [as I saw it] with irony - "how am I holding in there", comment which I did not like. We lost the round and was very upset with that so after the round I started asking around if anyone had that issue. I was told that its a know bug and should stay clear from WazGots at that particular spot. When I asked why was told that the gravi of WazGot at that spot will send you IN the rock with no way out. There was a WazGot at that spot the particular moment ! I'm suspecting 2 players for this but will not name anyone, the real question is, if this is a known bug and as I was told, no1 wants to fix then WTF is this !

The game being in a bad shape - please NO ONE argue with that - is due to a long list of problems including bugs that are not fixed and the worse part no1 cares. No need at this point to list what I feel made the game bad right now but if anyone is interested in my views, go ahead and ask, I'll do anything in my ability to list my views.

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8 hours ago, ComWittman said:

 


Despite the fact that the AI game mode, to me, its a drag and only once a day for the purple bonus, might be enjoyable by some players. No argument there, but 1st some isn't the majority and as I already said find it a drag - no reason to list why, and 2nd the AI mode isn't the topic of this thread. For once more a thread starts and derails along the way, skipping the essence/subject and deals with a million issues that are perhaps relevant but not on point.

 

Well - I would say that actually this game has matured. And actually majority do play vs AI, random PvP players are in minority now - most vet players are playing dreads and leagues with random PvP being used just to get that purple spot. There are issues with random PvP gameplay - there is no denial here - bots shouldn't be in that mode at all. However saying that topic derailed because it was discussing the most popular game mode is a little far stretch, don't you think? Not to mention at the current moment, practice in VsAI is a practice against the very same bots you will meet in random PvP games. From my private point of view I really enjoy dread battles - they are fun, dynamic and interesting. Fully random PvP? No, thank you. Squads? Sure, why not. 

 

8 hours ago, ComWittman said:

 

 

I would say, if we're to talk worse game mode, the new fashion [and call it that way cos it might have been here but never overused] with the 3 friendly/3 nme beacons. Like I've already mentioned, for every 10 pvp games I play the 6 or perhaps 7 are this mode. Not only find it boring due to the repetition but also not fun to play.

You mean Domination?

 

8 hours ago, ComWittman said:

 if this is a known bug and as I was told, no1 wants to fix then WTF is this !

First time I hear about this. There was a bug on this map that you can fly into the asteroid , but it was on the other side of the map and it was resolved long time ago IIRC. Did you actually made a bug report about this? Or someone else did? You know - no report, no bug to fix... Also if there is a bug on the map and someone was exploiting it knowing that it's a bug - it's a bannable offence. 

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8 hours ago, niripas said:

 

Well - I would say that actually this game has matured. And actually majority do play vs AI, random PvP players are in minority now - most vet players are playing dreads and leagues with random PvP being used just to get that purple spot. There are issues with random PvP gameplay - there is no denial here - bots shouldn't be in that mode at all. However saying that topic derailed because it was discussing the most popular game mode is a little far stretch, don't you think? Not to mention at the current moment, practice in VsAI is a practice against the very same bots you will meet in random PvP games. From my private point of view I really enjoy dread battles - they are fun, dynamic and interesting. Fully random PvP? No, thank you. Squads? Sure, why not. 

 

You mean Domination?

 

First time I hear about this. There was a bug on this map that you can fly into the asteroid , but it was on the other side of the map and it was resolved long time ago IIRC. Did you actually made a bug report about this? Or someone else did? You know - no report, no bug to fix... Also if there is a bug on the map and someone was exploiting it knowing that it's a bug - it's a bannable offence. 

Most popular? Can we get some numbers on that? And if so, why is that? Do you know any other game in which playing against bots is more popular then PvP? You can send those videos where you dogfight bots, I look forward seeing them. Did you try Wolfhound for it?

 

Game mode Wittman is reffering to is Four lives.  That mode is often played but its not the thing that bothers me most. It s the less maps in rotation that is the problem. 

 

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Co-op gets most of the tasks done that you can do in PvP, and honestly I'd rather go against bots with Tai'Kin rather than Thi'Lith Sparks, or tacklers with the Beam Disintegrator.

Warframe is a good example, almost no one cares about PvP in there.

 

 

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2 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:

Co-op gets most of the tasks done that you can do in PvP, and honestly I'd rather go against bots with Tai'Kin rather than Thi'Lith Sparks, or tacklers with the Beam Disintegrator.

Warframe is a good example, almost no one cares about PvP in there.

 

 

I was expecting ElD or EvO.Space games that have more similiarities with SC. And for those two and for the mentioned Wframe you can not say that are PvP based as SC is. Wframe is based on thicker storyline,campaigns and missions,PvP never really lived there. SC based on fastpaced brawling,PvP was where it really shined and PvAI (CoOp) mode was added later. Better examples for comparison would be WoT,CS Go or WoW.

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While Im waiting for master niripas to send me the videos Im still thinking about this "PvAI is most popular mode" thing. So I did a little "research" and some math. I checked the stats of best PvP players for how much PvAI games they play on average. If you do the same, you will realise that your best PvP players DO NOT play this mode almost at all, not even once per day on average. Does that tell you something?

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1 hour ago, BruTosGali said:

If you do the same, you will realise that your best PvP players DO NOT play this mode almost at all, not even once per day on average. Does that tell you something?

It tells one thing first and foremost. These players only make up a fraction of the playerbase.

 

Imo Skirmish is a boring modes, the bots are stupid and easy to outplay, they only have a quite good aim which makes it a pain (but not impossible) to fly Inties, but it is trivial to just dominate them with a Destroyer. And you never have to adapt to any new situation, they always pick the exact crappy ships with the exact same modules and behave exactly the same every time, they want to plant a bomb? Just shoot at the bomb carrier and he will turn around and attack you instead of continuing his fly to the station. Even the by some feared full Ellydium team is trivial and boring if you have the right ship

Spoiler

lMO1dmR.png

 

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@niripas, yes derailed because the subject of this thread is why or if for that matter, the game is in bad shape. Whether the Vs AI is the most successful game mode or the worse isn't directly relevant to the topic.

In your opinion the player base has matured and play Vs AI, 1st I wouldn't call that maturity and 2nd why would we downgrade the best part of the game which is pvp - imo that is. To be honest, when the new layout came [some months ago] I saw the leading game mode Vs AI [its 1st when we click battle] and gave me the impression the publisher/developer wants to downgrade the pvp hence promoting at the 1st spot of the game modes the Vs AI. Now, 2 GMs are confirming that......Naturally [at least in public] you guys should agree, but regardless I don't, not to mention that 2 opinions plus a few alts of yours will not actually create a solid number with up votes for the horrid Vs AI. Lets agree to disagree on this and discuss it no further but a side note, according to xXThunderFlameXx   players should stop to care about pvp. Not sure but I see some sort of attempt to change the game's character, players not to care about pvp here would be absurd !
 

2late to file a bug report, I haven't taken screenshots nor remember time etc, will do so if that happens again.

And yet here we go again, discussing a load of things, literature should be next and other than that the TOPIC of this thread is off topic !


Last time I checked the title was "Why is the game in bad shape" and can confirm its still the same. How about we get back to topic and leave the general discussion on a particular game mode whether is the worse or best. That, regardless, is just ONE game mode and I believe the OP means the game in general with ALL its game modes.

Bots in pvp and the atrocity of hot join [joining an existing game and usually near the end and/or with the losing team] are the result of low player count. I doubt a poll here where players would vote whether they enjoy pvp more than any other game mode would give correct figures. Perhaps a vote in the game's client with say a nominal amount of GS as reward for the vote would be best. The amount should be low but not insultingly low, such that the player would totally ignore, perhaps 100 or 150 GS would do it. Then, if that happens we shall a more clear picture as to what the pvp stands for the SC's player base. Some may say that the players asked for the hot join, but I really wonder, WHERE are those players now......I'd prefer to wait and get a decent full time round than eat what the mm wants to feed me with the current model. As for the bots, hell yeah remove the damn things and if it'll be just 1 v 1, so be it. Better than the totally brainless bots which some times aren't that brainless and will give the win to whichever team the mm wants.

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9 hours ago, John161 said:

It tells one thing first and foremost. These players only make up a fraction of the playerbase.

 

Imo Skirmish is a boring modes, the bots are stupid and easy to outplay, they only have a quite good aim which makes it a pain (but not impossible) to fly Inties, but it is trivial to just dominate them with a Destroyer. And you never have to adapt to any new situation, they always pick the exact crappy ships with the exact same modules and behave exactly the same every time, they want to plant a bomb? Just shoot at the bomb carrier and he will turn around and attack you instead of continuing his fly to the station. Even the by some feared full Ellydium team is trivial and boring if you have the right ship

  Hide contents

lMO1dmR.png

 

Hey 'Nator! First and foremost I want to thank you for providing the tool and stats. I can admit that your stats are just the fraction of those I viewed and mentioned above.

Except the obvious that it is a fraction of player base it tells more about that particular mode and the character of the game. It tells, what some here said, that this mode doesnt provide enough  or any challenge and new situations to resolve. That is what drive players to play more. It tells that this is a practise mode that wouldnt be played as much if there were no rewards. 

Fact remains that we dont know the size of that fraction (is it 20% ? )and we also dont know the whole number( how many play the game). And I think it is something that we could know if someone would care enough to provide the tool to improve the game. So it is not just math and facts. It is a little bit of math,logic and personal expirience from this and other games,all combined to give the (meta) answer to the topic question:Why is this game in bad shape. It can be broken down to one thing. Its some sort of careless attitude towards the basis of the game and that is PvP, that drove many players away. 

 

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TBH, the game is not in a bad shape, definitely not like some other games that were abandoned by their dev team in one way or the other, like niripas said, the game has matured into something quite complex and interesting and i understand when something isn't for someone, it's natural to move onto something else.

PvAi is a good testing ground for builds and i like that + nice rewards so no time wasted and i didnt ruin a pvp game with an awkward build. PvP matchmaking and the bot addition is debatable, sometimes it works to the fullest and provides really good and balanced games, other times it doesnt replace all of the bots with real people in time so it ends up a bit on the "meh" spectrum.

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20 hours ago, ComWittman said:

@niripas, yes derailed because the subject of this thread is why or if for that matter, the game is in bad shape. Whether the Vs AI is the most successful game mode or the worse isn't directly relevant to the topic.

Well, I didn't derail it then :) Merely answered a question.

20 hours ago, ComWittman said:

In your opinion the player base has matured and play Vs AI

 

No, game matured in a sense we have pretty good balance (i.e. no OP ships nor weapons) and there are advanced modes that require a lot of coordination and tactical thinking (dreads, scl). 
VsAI was recently the most popular skirmish game mode (from random PvP, Brawls and VsAI). That's what I wanted to say.

20 hours ago, ComWittman said:

2late to file a bug report, I haven't taken screenshots nor remember time etc, will do so if that happens again.

Awesome. If more people would act like this, the less bug would exist in the game.

On 12/2/2019 at 6:46 PM, BruTosGali said:

While Im waiting for master niripas to send me the videos Im still thinking about this "PvAI is most popular mode" thing. So I did a little "research" and some math. I checked the stats of best PvP players for how much PvAI games they play on average. If you do the same, you will realise that your best PvP players DO NOT play this mode almost at all, not even once per day on average. Does that tell you something?

Yep -  that stats for VsAI are just above 1 year old, and the best PvP players are playing longer than that. In my corp (which is pretty much one of the top ones) most players are doing random PvP mostly for a purple spot. Recently it started to change due to Ze'ta mission, though and in general random pvp gets more popular.

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1 hour ago, niripas said:

Yep -  that stats for VsAI are just above 1 year old, and the best PvP players are playing longer than that.

It is still less then once per day. And Im stiil waiting for those videos. :)

Edited by BruTosGali
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