Rob40468

My general pvp balance concerns

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Before I state my business, I'll it's all my personal opinion about the state of pvp right now. You don't have to agree, but if you do, please make discussion civil and at least give some arguments. I'll try to describe problems as much as possible with possible solutions to return SC back into a skill, competitive game. Note, I will only focus on two types of matches I only que for, queuing as R15+ and Sunday R9 tournament.


 

1. General

After all this time game is around, MM still can't properly shuffle the teams. One-sided massacres happen to often to be just coincidence. And since we can't see what affect the MM rating, I can't really suggest what to change. Only thing I can suggest to devs to play incognito themselves (not testers, you!) a couple (like 15 in a row) too see what is happening and make adjustments. Bonuses for low rank need to be revamped, some more confident in skill players choose low ranked ship on purpose to get increased damage output/survivability.

Look also at Dread battles. Sometimes happen the dreaded 1 man + bots vs wings "matches" that should never happen.


 

2. Fleet upgrade and overdependence on premium ships

Fleet upgrade was needed, no doubts. 'Normal' ships were neglected for too long. But when we finally got our precious new content for ships that are covered by dust, new issue came up. Yes, to get the most of the upgrade, you have to use premium ships. Most of the ships just got one or two modules, while premiums can use all of them, so ability to make combinations you couldn't before (and therefore broken). Examples: double regen Imperial gunships, Adaptive Plugin + deconstructor cannon (sure crit module with weapon very dependent on crit), Critical Counter + Tracer plasma gun (same thing), Boarding Charger/Ram Attack + Phantom (pull/push and no selfdamage facetorp). Assasin + Tac retreat CovOps (warp, plasma arc, retreat, no flying required). The intention of fleet upgrade was to make individual ship unique and that was destroyed allowing premiums to use all equipment.

Solution A: Disallow premiums to use all fleet upgrade modules and make special kit just for them. Pros: no more broken module combos. Cons: requires more devpower to develop and add more modules.
Solution B: Divide all added equipment to factions and this way allow more ships to use more modules. Pros: normal ships will be less in disadvantage. Cons: broken combos still exist.


 

3. Module-specific talk

Here I describe in my opinion most broken modules and what their problems are.

Energy destabilizing system
No doubts nr.1 hated module. Completely shuts down whole enemy team that gets into range, on open fields, there is no escape. Fits guard theme by protecting the team from enemy modules, but it's too efficient, lasts too long, has too much range and recharges too fast. Have no counter at all, whenever you press the button it won't stop as long you are alive.

Solution A: Turn it into aura like pulsar, so ECMs and Commands can shut it down. Pros: adds a counter Cons: all the other cons still remain and makes it dependent on having 2 classes in the match to counter 1 ship.
Solution B: Leave it as is, but remove range shrinking, so leaving 1km base range. Pros: 1km away from Object is easily manageable. Cons: Makes module almost useless, only countering very close attacks.
Solution C:  Leave it as is, but it affect only base regen. All other energy generating sources like energy recuperation system, energy emitter, and absorber works normally. Pros: doesn't shut down completely the enemy team. Cons: all other cons remain.


 

Quantum defence

Clears all negative effects, long duration, short cooldown, defence against almost all attacks. Combat reboot on steroids on a ship that should reward good piloting skills.

Solution A: reduce duration to 2s. Pros: turns into only getaway module. Cons: none, other than thinking 2 times before mindless charge.
Solution B: leave as is, but doesnt clear negative effects. Pros: more damage effects work, victim can still be stopped, disabled etc. Cons: all other cons remain.

 

 

Remote ammo detonation
ECM ships have a theme to interfere with normal ship functioning. This module breaks that, adding ability to unavoidable, instant damage depending on what missiles you have in slot.

Solution A: doesn’t detonate but forces to reload with increased time. Pros: no more I win button. Cons: less useful.
Solution B: detonation damage is constant. Pros: no more instant frag button against covops and frigs. Cons: still not fitting ecm theme.

 

 

Moriarty virus
Maybe fits an ECM theme with interfering with ship functioning, but from other hand its inverted old A1MA. Absolutely devastating on high damage beam weapon that you can’t stop other than proton wall. Too easy to kill teammate with this. There is only solution here at moment.

Solution A: auto aims at closest ally, but doesn’t shoot automatically. Pros: stops enemy from firing that still can kill teammate when not careful enough. Cons: none.

 

4. Weapon-specific talk

Here I talk about in my opinion most broken weapons or weapon combos.

 

Deconstructor cannon
Very high instant damage with shield piercing capabilities. On paper it might have same DPS as Phase Supressor, but alpha damage multiplied with Orion combined with kinetic type, works just too good, especially on ship that have innate high crit and crit damage – Cutter.

Solution A: Remove secondary effect. Pros: less dependance on R9 implant to survive longer, less instant damage. Cons: makes weapon less unique.
Solution B: Reduce hit damage, increase secondary effect turning it into DoT. Look as Plasmer – it deal 6k extra damage, but it doesnt as much destructive due to DoT effect. Pros: less instant damage, more time to hide and heal up Cons: dependance on crits to do maximized damage

 

Front Blaster
Very high dps weapon with slight autoaim capabilities, with double damage on high speeds. In most cases, especially with Orion, damage is simply too high while being too easy to aim this thing. The whole point of this gun was to have very hard aiming with very high damage.

Solution A: raise dps by 1k, remove double damage on speed. Look how well Geyser works this way. Pros: high difficult high reward still remains, no more stupidly high damage outdpsing gunships on overdrive. Cons: autoaim?
Solution B: add increasing spread, remove autosnapping to crosshair. Pros: high damage remain, but adds some skill to it. Cons: absurd damage on targets that can be easily hit like frigs or destros.

Thermal Energy Burner
Gun itself is ok, only certain ships that have access to projectile speed module completely denies the gun’s drawback.

S
olution: Simple make projectile speed module affect only allies, not command itself.

Dazzler railgun

Broken thing in this gun is not the damage – damage I could say is even too low. Increasing module cooldowns may remain forever whenever you just keep firing at target. Complete and free enemy shutdown should not happen – even stasis cost energy and last only 3s.

Solution: add a cooldown to increase cooldowns, like Project 1011’s disorienting gun. Increase dps to compensate. Pros: gun will be usable to kill, but will at least allow enemy to return fire. Cons: obvious. Less usefull.

Energy gun
Again, problem is not the damage, but secondary effect. Energy burning is too strong compared to for example Destructor.

Solution: make energy burning effect less efficient.

Focusing laser
The drawback of this gun is not noticeable compared to the stats it has. There is completely no reason to have that high critical damage with that range.

Solution A: decrease dps. Make it depend on critical hit. Pros: you need more skill to hit. Cons: abnormal high range
Solution B: reduce range, reduce critical damage. Pros: more consistent and less broken alternative to Ion emitter. Cons: none.

 

I think I covered the most things that in my opinion are breaking current pvp. I hope that devs finally realize that stuff they added works well in most cases on normal ships and it breaks whenever try to combine modules and weapons that shouldn’t work together on premiums. There is chance to fix all of this. Just look closely in your statistics and make adjustments. Overall health of game is better for your wallets.

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12 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Solution A: Disallow premiums to use all fleet upgrade modules and make special kit just for them. Pros: no more broken module combos. Cons: requires more devpower to develop and add more modules.
Solution B: Divide all added equipment to factions and this way allow more ships to use more modules. Pros: normal ships will be less in disadvantage. Cons: broken combos still exist.

Solution C: Limint unique modules on premiums to 1 or 2, instead of 3

 

14 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Quantum defence

Clears all negative effects, long duration, short cooldown, defence against almost all attacks. Combat reboot on steroids on a ship that should reward good piloting skills.

Not to be confused with invoulnerability, ships in that state can still be damaged by radioactive clouds, [Raid Atomizer], [Plasma Web], etc. but most importantly [Energy Converter]

 

18 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Remote ammo detonation
ECM ships have a theme to interfere with normal ship functioning. This module breaks that, adding ability to unavoidable, instant damage depending on what missiles you have in slot.

And oneshots Covops that carry a tactical nuke

 

20 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Solution A: raise dps by 1k, remove double damage on speed. Look how well Geyser works this way. Pros: high difficult high reward still remains, no more stupidly high damage outdpsing gunships on overdrive. Cons: autoaim?

That would just allow full blown strafe builds with [Front Blaster], which would make aiming it actually easier.

 

21 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Thermal Energy Burner
Gun itself is ok, only certain ships that have access to projectile speed module completely denies the gun’s drawback.

S
olution: Simple make projectile speed module affect only allies, not command itself.

Honestly i think this one is fine and doesn't need any kind of rework...

 

23 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Solution B: reduce range, reduce critical damage. Pros: more consistent and less broken alternative to Ion emitter. Cons: none.

And range modifiers should become unavailable, while using it. Because if they still are available, we will just have 7km campers instead of 9km campers, which really wouldn't help the balance a lot

 

25 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

I think I covered the most things that in my opinion are breaking current pvp

WL-13 El Emitters auto aim, makes intys almost immortal... they should maybe fix that one aswell...

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45 minutes ago, Rob40468 said:

Energy destabilizing system
No doubts nr.1 hated module. Completely shuts down whole enemy team that gets into range, on open fields, there is no escape. Fits guard theme by protecting the team from enemy modules, but it's too efficient, lasts too long, has too much range and recharges too fast. Have no counter at all, whenever you press the button it won't stop as long you are alive.

Solution A: Turn it into aura like pulsar, so ECMs and Commands can shut it down. Pros: adds a counter Cons: all the other cons still remain and makes it dependent on having 2 classes in the match to counter 1 ship.
Solution B: Leave it as is, but remove range shrinking, so leaving 1km base range. Pros: 1km away from Object is easily manageable. Cons: Makes module almost useless, only countering very close attacks.
Solution C:  Leave it as is, but it affect only base regen. All other energy generating sources like energy recuperation system, energy emitter, and absorber works normally. Pros: doesn't shut down completely the enemy team. Cons: all other cons remain.

my thoughts are a bit of a mix, 2000m like the other guard debuffs, reduce the duration, and make it only affect base regeneration, what do you think?

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I just had the most amazing battel ever. Both teams consisted of long range Laser Gunships and Vigilants with one Wazgot in the middle. Then there were a few Taikins that would just jump to the enemy team, use the Unknown Device to oneshot crash someone to death and jump back.

 

Needless to say, how much fun it was to be caught in the middle.

 

Spoiler

screenshot-180520-235147.thumb.jpg.ced2a

 

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It's seriously anoying many players have exactly these ships together their lineups:

Orelus

Ny 18

Waz'Got

[Either GE, Nyx, or a Premium recon]

 

Almost as if this are the most broken no skill trash builds... but nah... that can't be... let's nerf everything besides those things... seems fair!

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24 minutes ago, Flash0914 said:

It's seriously anoying many players have exactly these ships together their lineups:

Orelus

Ny 18

Waz'Got

[Either GE, Nyx, or a Premium recon]

Add Ghost instead of NY 18 and you have the actual line-up of a Developper.

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Its interesting, isnt it? The global fleet updates goal was to give silver ships more things to play with and thus to make them more competitive. Instead the update gave all the power to the premium ships and now noone uses silver ships at all :p

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1 hour ago, Scar6 said:

Its interesting, isnt it? The global fleet updates goal was to give silver ships more things to play with and thus to make them more competitive.

Are you sure that this was the developers intention? If it really was it probably wouldn't have ended as it is now.

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10 hours ago, John161 said:

Are you sure that this was the developers intention? If it really was it probably wouldn't have ended as it is now.

Very likely. Still kinda a dic*move to do that, especially when they communicated pretty much the opposite.

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who was the developer artist who let you play rank 3 with rank 15? or you can not play one hit and out. play sister and who invented team balance.

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i use some silver ships. but if you have the golden ships, you would use them anyway. that is just skewing perception.

the game is old by now, golden ships are not rare in an account.

 

On 20.5.2018 at 1:01 PM, Rob40468 said:

2. Fleet upgrade and overdependence on premium ships

there is nothing wrong with this approach, and the golden premium ships.

the problem on the orelus is the gun, which is just as annoying on any other ship, the orelus just happens to make best use of it.

most of the golden ships in t4 and t5 had a lot less use coverage before this, and even now, the most known ones are still those which always were a bit more used. in t3 they offered valuable alternative builds, while especially the t5 introduction of golden ships mainly reduced it to a few like the spark.

 

brainstorming more bad ideas is probably a bad idea, as already many modules are meh, and you can see they tried their best to recycle years of player feedback - almost no module "surprised" me and has been featured as an idea somewhere somewhen, sometimes even as joke. instead, normal ships (which also have "3 module limit" for no reason) should share modules more amongst each other, and each silver ship should have access to 5 modules at least, so it becomes a choice.

so basicly: give each fleet upgrade item one more ship from the same race, and one ship from the other race as possible user.

or the other way around, give each ship 2 more modules, i dunno how it would work in balancing it, i never made a map, but you understand what i mean.

 

by all means if they come up with a module that seems useful in this process, why not adding it.
 

On 20.5.2018 at 1:27 PM, Flash0914 said:

 

On 20.5.2018 at 1:01 PM, Rob40468 said:

Thermal Energy Burner
Gun itself is ok, only certain ships that have access to projectile speed module completely denies the gun’s drawback.

S
olution: Simple make projectile speed module affect only allies, not command itself.

Honestly i think this one is fine and doesn't need any kind of rework...

have to agree there

 

On 20.5.2018 at 1:01 PM, Rob40468 said:

Focusing laser

reducing range is imho fair. not even frigate guns shoot that far.

---

 

everything else however, i have to say, sums it pretty much up, @Rob40468

get my like.

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New addition to the mix.

 

ECM Repair systems sabotage. Why? ECM's natural enemy should be Tackler or other ECM. But no, this module makes you completely invulnerable to ALL modules, be it plasma web, tackler beam slow or god damn pyro emitter. If it's "Repair system sabotage", why it clears negative effects for so long?

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1 hour ago, Rob40468 said:

New addition to the mix.

 

ECM Repair systems sabotage. Why? ECM's natural enemy should be Tackler or other ECM. But no, this module makes you completely invulnerable to ALL modules, be it plasma web, tackler beam slow or god damn pyro emitter. If it's "Repair system sabotage", why it clears negative effects for so long?

I never experienced this one to be a problem... I guess most ECM players are not good enough, to make proper use of it

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10 hours ago, Flash0914 said:

I never experienced this one to be a problem... I guess most ECM players are not good enough, to make proper use of it

Play dreads.

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4 hours ago, Rob40468 said:

Play dreads.

Not without a full wing

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