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Ariadne's Thread - T5 - Significant Cyber Reaper/Frigate Nerf Needed

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Video is of the encounter that lead me to post this. Youtube takes time to process a video, it was recorded in 1080p. Give it time. 

 

I do not want play PvE knowing that destroyers are so squishy. They should never have a 300% PvE damage booster, PvP is fine, but versus aimbot AI, it's ridiculous. I purposely built my Sibyl for kinetic resistance, amassing 200 in the end at all times, and I got dealt 21,000 per hit, x3 frigates. You can try to run but with the average group you get,there is not enough firepower to kill them. They are worse than turtles due to their high damage per hit to any target-- not just destroyers and their speed to catch up to a target. This post is meant to focus on the issues at hand with this mission. I understand it's supposed to be harder due to the credit reward upon completion, but the average group you get with simply cannot beat this mission the majority of the time. 

The 300% boost to enemy and self fire(what..?) does not need to be in PvE because it basically makes destroyers useless in up-close endeavours, a mission like Ariadne's thread requires you to destroy/capture many targets and simply sitting back and trying to hit something(halo) at far range to protect your teammates simply does not work. 

On top of all of this, this mission has waves of waves on snipers after the second beacon is captured that can strafe away from your shots WHILE sniping. Again, aimbot, it does not seem fair to have this ability. 

At this present moment, I avoid using destroyers unless it's fire support or defence contract because they are simply too squishy. 

Turtles in Defence Contract with a destroyer than might be built for Coilgun or Meson will most likely end up taking multiple shrapnel cannons up the rear and die due to the 300% damage boost. How to remove? Photon at close range? Not a chance! Tempest? HA! You have to take them out on distances and if your one of the unlucky ones..... with coilgun/meson... good bye, you're useless. 

Simply:

  • Limit the damage boost to a figure such as
    • 30/50%
  • Decrease the Cyber Shrapnel Cannon damage

Possibly lower the credit gain to combat this change, making it an easier mission thus more opportunity's for newer pilots trying it/unlucky-no team pilots. 

 

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you need 300+ resistance to tank rank 15. i do this map with one of two ships .... R-15 falcon or the Ronin The Ronin can tank the whole map and the falcon can dodge and hide from the whole map ....  the secret to AI in this game is to use the 80's level intellect they have against them.  AI in this game is a joke they have 100% access to your screen and everything you see and even what your not aloud to see about your own ship. they know when shooting you would benefit you and stop so you don't get that benefit . they see you when your invisible and follow you and are locked on you just waiting for permission to fire the nano second your decloaked in all reality they have already fired before you decloak as they have access to the exact moment the round will hit you and it does exactly when you decloak . the AI weapons are a hackers dream they don't exist in the star conflict universe except in AI form . Rank 8 reapers in pirate fort raid at rank 15 doing 1,000,000 DPS with a singularity cannon . Ariadne's thread with rank 8 reapers and tormentors doing 100,000 DPS at 4600 meters with shrapnel cannons that work like a scatter gun when locked on .  so to confuse the AI in this game you use the guard modules and the covert ops modules if you have a guard or dessie you take the covert ops and piss the AI off and they will ignore everything else on the map and follow you everywhere for the entire 30 minutes while the rest of the team does the objectives if someone else has a covert ops you take the Ronin and let them cap the beacons while you prepare for the tanking behind the cover of the tower behind the signal generator when its destroyed you pop under the dreadnought and hide there and destroy the other .... stay there and wait for the destroyer to come to you and die by your gun ..... 2 players can do this map solo if you work as a team .... taking a destroyer is a waste of time and repair cost ... the marketing department in star conflict must be morons to nerf destroyers so bad as they are running a rank 14 destroyer selling marathon ... but there is a reason this game never came out of beta i guess . anyway .... hope that helps

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@FreakinLoveBass

So basically you are complaining that because of wrong lineup and ship setup difficulty should be lowered?

In this video you see why everyone is saying "don't do the brute force approach". First mistake - lineup. Second mistake - you built a high regen Sibyl and not using that ability. Next ones:

- killing Cyber Cutter at 1:36 - it needs to be left alive. Same as Cyber Saw at 3:47. The whole idea of this stage is to kite npcs off the capping ship.

- 5:14 you have locked [Elite] cloak cyber, and you are trying long range shot at the station. Photon is homing on enemy ship. 

 

etc etc. Taz gave you a nice lineup and description how it should be done

For the Defence Contract and Fire Support the answer is simple and known from the beginning - use the explosive weapons - in case of destroyers it's Halo or Gthar'du, in case of frigates - mortars.

@Original_Taz

Quote

They see you when your invisible and follow you and are locked on you just waiting for permission to fire the nano second your decloaked in all reality they have already fired before you decloak as they have access to the exact moment the round will hit you and it does exactly when you decloak

 

That is actually not true. If you have full invisibility - (like on tackler) they will go to the last spot where they saw the ship. If you have only radar cloak (covops, lrf) - they will do the same, however they will see you via optics if less than 1.5-2km. 

Spoiler

taking a destroyer is a waste of time and repair cost .

It depends who is in your team. It saves a lot of time if used properly. 

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The bottom point is simple!

This mission requires a group of highly organized players to compensate for the other's weaknesses.

I still agree that those Guard (Blood Tormentor) frigate is dealing too much damage. If just one comes close to your destroyer, it will get killed in less than ten seconds.

The other problem is, that frigates can fire at any direction, probably at the same damage ratio, while you, as a player, can fire as well, but with fewer guns and damage penalty.

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2 hours ago, Koromac said:

This mission requires a group of highly organized players to compensate for the other's weaknesses.

Two players to be exact. Considering Captured Dreadnought requires 3, how is that different? 

Quote

I still agree that those Guard (Blood Tormentor) frigate is dealing too much damage. If just one comes close to your destroyer, it will get killed in less than ten seconds.

Then what about Pirate Warlords? Or turtles? The whole idea of those kind of ships is to a) kite them away or b) kill them as soon as possible

Quote

The other problem is, that frigates can fire at any direction, probably at the same damage ratio, while you, as a player, can fire as well, but with fewer guns and damage penalty.

I was killing them with recon from behind, not much of an issue.

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58 minutes ago, niripas said:

Two players to be exact. Considering Captured Dreadnought requires 3, how is that different? 

I never mentioned that you need a group of four players or three. I mentioned that you need a group of highly organized players, meaning, at least one additional skilled person or player.

 

58 minutes ago, niripas said:

Then what about Pirate Warlords? Or turtles? The whole idea of those kind of ships is to a) kite them away or b) kill them as soon as possible

True, but I was mentioning this in a case of a destroyer, in case if such thing happens. When it happens, even a Rank 14 destroyer will not withstand all that DPS from a single ship.

 

58 minutes ago, niripas said:

I was killing them with recon from behind, not much of an issue.

They can fire in any direction, even backward. 360 degrees - above below, left right, circular, whatever. Bots are bots equipped with better or worse aimbots!

Not to mention that sniper can shot and snipe at the same time, and fire missiles as well.

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I agree with That. Those frigates in Adriane Thread are really troublesome. Best way how to deal with them is to kill them ASAP before they will come too close to you. In ordrer to do so I sacrified everything on my Tyrant to damage, but still sometimes when all enemies are firing to me I can't hold on.

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While the whole mission [at T5] isnt impossible to complete [there is a fair amount of difficulty higher than other pve] with a random team is really hard to complete. I can only assume the mission was implemented at a time that the game had more active players and was easier to form a team of 4 to complete the mission. Fact is that we do NOT have a fair amount of players online, forming a team for that mission is a luxury. A luxury that we simply do not have, that is a fact.

Right now, and we need to deal with reality, the mission rewards arent that great on the basis, 1st with randoms will be failures and 2nd the time required is x 3 [give or take] any other pve. If a T5 pve that takes 8 min approx to complete, rewards with say 900k and given Ariadne's is paying 2.5 mil with prem plus weekend credits bonus then the average pve pays better. Not per run but for the time frame Ariadne's needs to be completed [without failure and random players that will NOT use dups and sit back for the rest to complete] we can complete 3 standard pve. So a standard pve x 3 runs = way better than Ariadne's. Not to mention that some missions [provided the player got a decent ship] can complete it after a certain point alone.

I understand that the game's spirit is to motivate players to play in groups and that's great but like I said, we do not that luxury at this point. Would be best if the developers will see the whole issue from a different perspective, the one that is based according to the current facts.

Yes, I agree the AI guards hit very hard but then again all AIs hit very hard. And yes thats another reason for players to play these modes in groups, again I'll say at this point the this whole concept isnt applicable.

Some, and I'm sure of it, will say that things arent as I'm saying they are. Will claim numbers online that according to these numbers forming a group/s isnt an issue. Let them say whatever makes them happy.....

So yes, nerf the AI [no need to nerf them as they have nerfed the player destroyers, no need to kill them] and make the mission fun to complete according to what the facts of game are atm.

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11 hours ago, ComWittman said:

While the whole mission [at T5] isnt impossible to complete [there is a fair amount of difficulty higher than other pve] with a random team is really hard to complete. I can only assume the mission was implemented at a time that the game had more active players and was easier to form a team of 4 to complete the mission. Fact is that we do NOT have a fair amount of players online, forming a team for that mission is a luxury. A luxury that we simply do not have, that is a fact.

Right now, and we need to deal with reality, the mission rewards arent that great on the basis, 1st with randoms will be failures and 2nd the time required is x 3 [give or take] any other pve. If a T5 pve that takes 8 min approx to complete, rewards with say 900k and given Ariadne's is paying 2.5 mil with prem plus weekend credits bonus then the average pve pays better. Not per run but for the time frame Ariadne's needs to be completed [without failure and random players that will NOT use dups and sit back for the rest to complete] we can complete 3 standard pve. So a standard pve x 3 runs = way better than Ariadne's. Not to mention that some missions [provided the player got a decent ship] can complete it after a certain point alone.

Have you actually tried to form a team? You need just another person that knows what should be done (which take one run to explain). If you have problems with finding players for PvE runs, maybe try joining corporation? Crimson Solace, DSX, Star Storm those are very active corps with multirole approach. ALF is good as their aim is to farm PvE. 

 

Regarding the difficulty. Ariadne's Thread is the only one that requires a little of tactical thinking, all others can be done using pure firepower (even Crimson Haze, which required cooperation of 3 people,now can be done even without building turrets).  You just calculated that other maps can give a better credit yield per time unit. So maybe leave one map for those people that want a little bit of challenge? Credit farmers are not losing anything (as you just said), guys that want to do coordinated PvE with a little hint of challenge to get PvE more interesting - can play this map. 

 

I would nerf only those shrapnels a little, the rest is fine. 

 

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11 hours ago, niripas said:

Have you actually tried to form a team? You need just another person that knows what should be done (which take one run to explain). If you have problems with finding players for PvE runs, maybe try joining corporation? Crimson Solace, DSX, Star Storm those are very active corps with multirole approach. ALF is good as their aim is to farm PvE. 

 

Regarding the difficulty. Ariadne's Thread is the only one that requires a little of tactical thinking, all others can be done using pure firepower (even Crimson Haze, which required cooperation of 3 people,now can be done even without building turrets).  You just calculated that other maps can give a better credit yield per time unit. So maybe leave one map for those people that want a little bit of challenge? Credit farmers are not losing anything (as you just said), guys that want to do coordinated PvE with a little hint of challenge to get PvE more interesting - can play this map. 

 

I would nerf only those shrapnels a little, the rest is fine. 

 

I have tried many times to form a team and have done so after searching for over an hour....Despite the fact that I don't expect you to admit whatever I previously mentioned, we both know the truth.

I agree, AT does need some thinking and that only if done for the 1st time. The AI tactics do not change hence once someone gets the hang of it, the idea is rather simple, keep swarming AI far from the objective while 1 or 2 others deal with it. That takes a TEAM and not random players, allow me, headless chickens. Further more, due to low player count, to be able to get a match server option should be set to all regions whiuch means many times [if not most of the times] the game takes the player to a server with serious barrier - the language.

I am not interested in joining any corporatiuon at this point, especially ones that are biased and will never admit game flaws. I could join a corporation only if all the members were adults [over 25 anyway], a team that would actually work as such and all the players would be respectful to eachother. I've joined 3 corps so far, I left the 1st because I couldnt find players to interact and from the other 2 I left because they were far from what I said earlier. No names needed here, lets leave it at that, perhaps I'm the 1 that is in error......I prefer to stay solo, not blame anyone. That is not the issue in hand and certainly I'm not the 1st player giving negative feedback on AT. To be honest I havent heard much positive feedback unless a pre-formed group goes into that mission.

Not all players have the same skill level nor game understanding, instead off advocating the existing mission and saying how it should be comnpleted, in my poor opinion - nerf the thing a bit. Its a game meant to be played for fun. To be enjoyed by all the player spectrum and not just the skilled ones.

 

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2 hours ago, ComWittman said:

(...)Not all players have the same skill level nor game understanding, instead off advocating the existing mission and saying how it should be comnpleted, in my poor opinion - nerf the thing a bit. Its a game meant to be played for fun. To be enjoyed by all the player spectrum and not just the skilled ones.

If you insist of doing this map solo, then maybe change the map difficulty from hard (11-15) to medium (6-10)? It is solo-doable there, inconvenient due to spawn and bot mechanics, but doable. Basically this mission is based on 2 or more people working together (same as  Crimson Haze, or Cap Dread). Even when you nerf the frigs, predators will still kill people not working together. Dunno about hearing positive feedback - people just doing it. For some of them that map is a primary credit source as they accept the premises of working together. Dunno about "luxury of finding teamplayers" - just make few friends from Zet or corps I listed above and fly with them. I mentioned corps as that is the easiest way to find a teammates. Heck it took me less than 2 minutes today to make a team of 4 to do this mission, just to get extra 2 mill. 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, niripas said:

If you insist of doing this map solo, then maybe change the map difficulty from hard (11-15) to medium (6-10)? It is solo-doable there, inconvenient due to spawn and bot mechanics, but doable. Basically this mission is based on 2 or more people working together (same as  Crimson Haze, or Cap Dread). Even when you nerf the frigs, predators will still kill people not working together. Dunno about hearing positive feedback - people just doing it. For some of them that map is a primary credit source as they accept the premises of working together. Dunno about "luxury of finding teamplayers" - just make few friends from Zet or corps I listed above and fly with them. I mentioned corps as that is the easiest way to find a teammates. Heck it took me less than 2 minutes today to make a team of 4 to do this mission, just to get extra 2 mill. 

Although I really dont want to debate this, you have your own opinion - you have the right have one - I have mine. And in my opinion things are not quite as you're saying, I'll let others judge the whole thing. Despite the fact the Forum has a handful of active players only, and who knows, some of them might have multiple accounts. Still I'm willing to see what others have to say.

Yesterday at some point I joined that PVE with a random team, was quite upset of 3 previous attempts with randoms that died within the 1st 1 min and never bothered to use dups nor get back in after I tried to revive 2 of them ! When the round started I posted in the game chat "play the mission correct, do not waste the time of others and use dups, they are FREE !" Then the round started, we capped the 1st beacon and by that time all AI gone ! Had to wait for few secs for new ones to spawn. Was thrilled, the whole mission lasted [not sure 100%] 10 min give or take and was a success. No idea whether the 3 players were in group and I was the 4th but it went great.

I don't enjoy PVE that much however I need it to build credits and that mission yes is a great source. Yes, nerfing it a bit will still be hard mission to complete solo but would be easier to deal with it with randoms especially with the current low player count which no1 can deny.

Not interested for a lower rank than 15 as the rewards are lower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ComWittman said:

Not interested for a lower rank than 15 as the rewards are lower.

 

IIRC the difference was ~20%. So in summary - you want to get the same rewards, with difficulty lowered to the point you can do this practically solo in R15? Even now you just need the second person to cap and do side missions, when another one sits in one spot in guard and can fulfill all main objectives. If other 2 can help -  it goes even faster. If you don't know how to do this mission - ask ORCA, TAZ told you what to do as well. Heck we were able to do this map yesterday with intie, tackler and engie (and one other person that died immediately and refused to respawn) - it was a nightmare, but still finished with 3.3 million.

 

Quote

Yesterday at some point I joined that PVE with a random team, was quite upset of 3 previous attempts with randoms that died within the 1st 1 min and never bothered to use dups nor get back in after I tried to revive 2 of them ! When the round started I posted in the game chat "play the mission correct, do not waste the time of others and use dups, they are FREE !" Then the round started, we capped the 1st beacon and by that time all AI gone ! Had to wait for few secs for new ones to spawn. Was thrilled, the whole mission lasted [not sure 100%] 10 min give or take and was a success. No idea whether the 3 players were in group and I was the 4th but it went great.

Yeah - that how it works. You should ask them if you can do few more  battles with them :) You would have your team for Ariadne's Thread ;)

 

 

On 25.11.2017 at 5:29 PM, Koromac said:

They can fire in any direction, even backward. 360 degrees - above below, left right, circular, whatever. Bots are bots equipped with better or worse aimbots!

Verified that as well - I killed 3 of them from behind in an intie. They usually couldn't hit me, but even if they did I was receiving 200-300 kinetic dmg. I have 2200 hull, so... They are deadly against destroyers in the open, so they have to be dealt with before they close range to that destroyer. Also they are terrible in tight spaces - Blackwood hidey hole still works. 

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The damagebonus against destroyers needs to be totally removed from the game.

You already have ships that can disable them and turning them into a floating waste of credits.

 

No ship and no weapon should be able to do THAT amount of damage towards a destroyer,

especially not in a mission where you can't respawn "for free".

 

I'm not spending weeks or months worth of resources to build a ship that is ripped apart in seconds

by an overpowered AI or stupidly balanced ships - especially Pay-to-win ships like the Spark.

 

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3 hours ago, Progenitor2 said:

 

The damagebonus against destroyers needs to be totally removed from the game.

You already have ships that can disable them and turning them into a floating waste of credits.

 

No ship and no weapon should be able to do THAT amount of damage towards a destroyer,

especially not in a mission where you can't respawn "for free".

 

I'm not spending weeks or months worth of resources to build a ship that is ripped apart in seconds

by an overpowered AI or stupidly balanced ships - especially Pay-to-win ships like the Spark.

 

Please stay on topic. You basically writing about lowering the close-range damage to the destroyers in few different threads now. You can do this properly by writing a post in the Suggestion subsection of the forum explaining why do you think it should be made. Adding poll to it will give it more weight. 

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how will adding a poll give it weight ??? there are only 20 players on the English forum and 50% of them are in the Dev's pocket .... How many polls do we need to see that reflect the Dev's point of view when chat in game is filled with these complaints ???? so let me give an example so non-English players have an idea .... CHAT: seen all day every day.  "destroyers are worthless now  i wish they would go back to the way they were"  POLL: would you like to see destroyers go back to the way they were ? ...(YES)  3 votes  (NO) 15 votes .... isn't it funny how the same players always vote no every time about anything that has a 80% negative response in game chat ? ....  so tell me again niripas how exactly will a poll help the Dev's see the TRUE player response when the majority of the forum is payed in some way to be biased .?.

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1 hour ago, Original_Taz said:

how will adding a poll give it weight ??? there are only 20 players on the English forum and 50% of them are in the Dev's pocket .... How many polls do we need to see that reflect the Dev's point of view when chat in game is filled with these complaints ???? so let me give an example so non-English players have an idea .... CHAT: seen all day every day.  "destroyers are worthless now  i wish they would go back to the way they were"  POLL: would you like to see destroyers go back to the way they were ? ...(YES)  3 votes  (NO) 15 votes .... isn't it funny how the same players always vote no every time about anything that has a 80% negative response in game chat ? ....  so tell me again niripas how exactly will a poll help the Dev's see the TRUE player response when the majority of the forum is payed in some way to be biased .?.

How can a poll show the true player response when most of the votes in the poll disagree with my opinion!

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Cap asap, then hide in the dread wing like we do in the other mission against the punisher deadly AoE and bot swarm.

 

From there you blow up station then the other from the other wing or structure to the right of it.

 

Then back to hiding to finish up Boss and mobs. Again just like against Punisher.

You can complete it with anything that way.

 

Your allies spend too much time fighting never ending waves of pirates before capping.

 

But yea, the destroyers debuff stink in pve. And overall, DD's stink now.

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