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millanbel

Rank 9 fighting rank 13

32 posts in this topic

1. Description of the problem, what happened.
 
I was put into a game with rank 13 ships when I was flying rank 9 ships. According to the patchnotes, I should be placed against maximum rank 10:
 
"
  • Easy: battles between ships from rank 1 to 5

  • Medium first level: battles between ships from rank 5 to 7
  • Medium first level: battles between ships from rank 7 to 10
  • Hard: battles between ships from rank 10 to 15

"

This is particularly a problem because I do not wish to fight against rank 11 destroyers with annoying gravi.

 
2. What did you expected to happen.
 
I expected to be put into a rank 7-10 game
 
3. The conditions during the situation.
 
Launched into pvp
 
4. Further details on the issue.
 
-
 
5. Frequency of occurrence.
 
Has happened several times.
 
6. Logs + screenshots or a video (Including a description of the issue, where to and how to reproduce it)  Screenshot needs to be done with ingame tools! Don't change screenshot's original name!
 
Logs attached (last match in these logs was where it happened).
 
Screenshot:
 
 
 

Vw8rUDf.jpg

 
 
7. If possible, the time when it happend. In this case we will be able to look more closely to the server logs. Also mention your time zone.
 
2300 French time
 
8. Information on the configuration of your computer (DxDiag)
 
-
 
9. The results of this program if the bug report is related to connection issues.
 
-
 
10. If the complaint is related to Sector Conquest, it is necessary to specify the location and time + timezone of the happening.
 
-

2017.03.17 22.26.50 Bug Ranks.zip

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1 hour ago, Gizmomac said:

They worked so much on those effects y u don't like it :D
 

 

 
 

Yeah and strafing to the right side for a different angle and be further from black holes was obviously beyond your abilities

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22 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

Yeah and strafing to the right side for a different angle and be further from black holes was obviously beyond your abilities

You can't strafe out of black holes. Even flying forwards is a struggle if you are in a frigate or slow fighter.

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1 hour ago, millanbel said:

You can't strafe out of black holes. Even flying forwards is a struggle if you are in a frigate or slow fighter.

75232009.jpg

 

Black hole has a maximum pull of 150 m/s, and that is in epicenter of it, the further you are from it, the weaker the pull, even if black hole was spawned right with you in a center (and to be honest if that happens you should be looking for help and not discuss balance), you can get out of the centers with strafing and forward movement no problem, even in the empire frigates. On those videos, he has no problem strafing in any direction, so instead of just strafing to the side of an asteroid, he instead chose to strafe to the forum.

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That's nothing Milan. Few weeks ago i've been bad and hunted down a Phobos hiding behind an Asteroid, trying to live through the battle. Killed him with my Vigilante.

What rank is Phobos and Vigilante already!?

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@Millanbel: For you this is a feature, not a bug. :D

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10 hours ago, xKostyan said:

 

 

Black hole has a maximum pull of 150 m/s, and that is in epicenter of it, the further you are from it, the weaker the pull, even if black hole was spawned right with you in a center (and to be honest if that happens you should be looking for help and not discuss balance), you can get out of the centers with strafing and forward movement no problem, even in the empire frigates. On those videos, he has no problem strafing in any direction, so instead of just strafing to the side of an asteroid, he instead chose to strafe to the forum.

I said just strafing. It's not possible. Also more often than not in gamemodes where there is a lot of focus (team battle, beacon hunt etc) , there are two or three gravi holes close together. Now try calculating how to compensate the pull from three different sources in order to get out... Even in astrophysics the three-body problem remains unsolved (not an exact example but it illustrates the complexity that I'm trying to convey here). More often than not when I try to compensate so I can fly in the direction I want to fly in, I end up crashing head-first into a rock! So you have two choices: just let them pull you and wait for them to despawn, or choose a direction and fly straight forward, which is just asking to get killed. Only ceptors and fast fighters have the luxury of being able to easily get out, and even use them in a positive way - sometimes in my cov ops I use a slingshot manoevre round a gravi hole to get somewhere faster, which is pretty cool, but it's a niche use. More often than not they are just very annoying.

The solutions I see and that I have mentioned in other thread (some combination, not all at once of course):

- Reduce cooldown to the level of engineer warpgate so it becomes a tactical tool and not just something you can spam
- Reduce the pull so it becomes only a minor annoyance to slow frigates and so it becomes a tactical tool to use against frigballs
- Introduce a minimum distance required between two holes. If the distance is not respected, the old hole despawns
- Killing the destroyer could kill the hole (now that they are balanced and killable)
- System hack could destroy the hole not just "capture" it which is useless since friendly holes are just as annoying as enemy ones

 

We probably shouldn't have this discussion on a bug report thread though, or skula is going to giv me another warning for excessive flame :p 

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I am going to start from calling complete BS on you doing "slingshot" maneuver, Star Conflict current physic settings do not allow for such thing, for that to work you need the low of conservation of energy to not be opposed by your engines (automatic speed compensation). W/e you gain from the pull will be compensated off at the rate of your acceleration value.

 

6 hours ago, millanbel said:

I said just strafing. It's not possible.

 

If your strafing value of 107m/s (considering you throwing big words around like astrophysics, I assume you know how sum of vectors work) it is already enough to overcome a pull of a black hole in the center of it, and I as I said earlier there is no excuse to be in the center of it if you are not in a destroyer. If your ship has everything in rotation and you still trying to purely strafe, again, you have bigger issues. Even empire fighters with a single strafe implant have no issues getting out of it, and again you should stop be in the epicenter of it, to begin with, and if you are half way from the center, literally anything can get away from it, just have to press the keyboard

If you are within a range of 3 active black holes, either your positioning is utter crap or you chose to stay there, in either way that is your problem, not the black holes, just as much as if you would choose to stay within 4 mine fields and tank it.

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26 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

I am going to start from calling complete BS on you doing "slingshot" maneuver, Star Conflict current physic settings do not allow for such thing, for that to work you need the low of conservation of energy to not be opposed by your engines (automatic speed compensation). W/e you gain from the pull will be compensated off at the rate of your acceleration value.

No, if you aren't going max speed it feels like it helps you accelerate/turn. I notice it most in a fed frigate. It could be just an impression but it certainly feels like I'm accelerating/turning faster when flying perpendicular to the pull and letting it pull me to one side while flying forward. Of course I'm no expert on the physics engine in the game so I could be wrong.

 

As for the rest of your post, whatever. I maintain that I can't strafe or reverse out of effect range of a black hole, or that it takes a very long time. And flying straight out of one, while very possible, renders me useless for a good period of time while I try to reposition (pull range too high). Then, chances are, my new position will also soon have a black holes on it (too low cooldown)... Also in beacon games, repositioning  too far simply isn't an option, because you need to capture the beacon.

This is my experience from many games flying against high-ranked destroyers. I'm not saying they are OP, just that they are annoying. I would also bring the reaper pulling module into this category, but it doesn't seem to bother other people too much, and I don't see many reapers in games.

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33 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

God, and g4 had balls to imply this is a tackler I should be looking up too.

edwxi.jpg?a413784

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point is, you get up to r13 with r9, and get into games with r6-r9s, if you go r11, where i expect hard (r15)

On 18.3.2017 at 3:32 AM, xKostyan said:

Black hole has a maximum pull of 150 m/s

interesting. what is its acceleration? as this information basicly only says nothing in a maximum speed simulation. so you need over 150m/s to escape its influence, but how much acceleration do you need to counter its force? Or is it that? Because then, not many have 150 m/sec² acc.

On 18.3.2017 at 7:48 PM, xKostyan said:

I am going to start from calling complete BS on you doing "slingshot" maneuver, Star Conflict current physic settings do not allow for such thing

yeah. i think he meant the acceleration here too, of course, in a maximum speed environment, slingshotting will not occur. you can still use it use its acceleration and boost into a perpendicular direction to the force vector of the singularity, which would use the same mechanics, until you reach the pull speed, as a slingshot manouver until you reach the caps, and basicly using it to rapidly change direction. This is just tiptoeing anyway. It's different, but it's still similar to a point in the slingshot, so why not nickname it like that. I like it.

On 18.3.2017 at 9:26 PM, xKostyan said:

God, and g4 had balls to imply this is a tackler I should be looking up too.

coz he is skilled as cena! srsly, take this to the twister club. also it's g4b, monsieur!

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Black hole is not a simulation of a gravity, it applies a constant force (depending on a distance form a center), and assuming you are next to it it will be 150m/s but it will NOT accelerate you past 150, your pull speed will always be equal to the current force of pull, it is more of a "tractor beam" rather than a gravitation well. Hence the sling shot thing - you will accelerate when pull vector is positive, but you can only gain up to 150m/s (if you are going through the centre) but then the moment your pull goes into negative vector you will lose all that 150m/s by speed compensation and on top of that applied negative pull of -150m/s, so unless you are flying a destroyers with extremely slow acceleration lvl (to have that extra 150 m/s decelerated longer than you getting out of black hole range)

Granted I don’t know which acceleration value is used to go from 0-150m/s, but it is safe to assume that is same acceleration that is used for all displacement effects, be it a repealing beam or reaper pull, or Gthar gun's effect

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29 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

Black hole is not a simulation of a gravity, it applies a constant force (depending on a distance form a center), and assuming you are next to it it will be 150m/s but it will NOT accelerate you past 150,

inertial dampening in sc is just drag, otherwise, the calculations must be the same, just capped. So you have to manually create the orbit :)

also, a slingshot manouver does not take you through the middle of the gravity well, otherwise, it would be quite unfortunate.

the differences in theory are irrelevant of mass and gravity, as the compared system of a spaceship to a planet or black hole means its basicly just the distance to the mass and the resulting acceleration - which is adequatly represented by virtual point with decreased pull over distance.

but yeah, basicly, all you can gain is acceleration until 150m/s, but you can still use it to accelerate away faster than out of your own strength, or theoretically, albeit i gotta try this, to change direction with a cruise build. might be too weak through the cap.

I still don't find it as unadequate to use it for nitpicking, as I think probably most people would say "slingshotting" when they encounter this in game by accident.

29 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

Granted I don’t know which acceleration value is used to go from 0-150m/s, but it is safe to assume that is same acceleration that is used for all displacement effects, be it a repealing beam or reaper pull, or Gthar gun's effect

unfortunate, since it does change things. maybe tetroxide makes sense then :)

actually without knowing this, you shouldn't be so sure about the correctness of your whole theory there with only destros getting stuck either, as it would depend on the acceleration of the ships aswell - not just their max speed.

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Reaper pull(if not bugfixed) just reduce your total speed, but don't pulling you towards it unlike the black hole/destroyer 'Andromeda' generators.

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1 hour ago, g4borg said:

inertial dampening in sc is just drag, otherwise, the calculations must be the same, just capped. So you have to manually create the orbit :)

This drag depends on ships own acceleration, and different in different forward/backwards to strafe due to different acceleration values.

I know it is not through the centre, but 150m/s is in the epicentre, so the further you are form it the lower your cap you can gain from this. And again what you gain will be lost from "drag" as well the negative pull form the black hole, so if your ship 9and most do) have relatively high drag, w/e you gain from the pull gonna be lost before you even leave the area of the pull.

P.S. Statistically I am more times correct than wrong, so I am certain I am not to far off :)

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5 hours ago, xKostyan said:

P.S. Statistically I am more times correct than wrong, so I am certain I am not to far off :)

i believe you, but believe me, i am really deep inside this math atm. :p

anyway, I am impartial, as the main topic is still annoying as a fact, imho!

 

I think to summarize

you use the acceleration towards the hole, to accelerate, and then traverse into a perpendicular (orbital) axis and use main thrusters to create the needed escape speed. It gives you a nice acceleration boost from low speeds or standstill. As you gain speed you can reach velocity. the ship drag itself doesnt come to effect as long as you have your engines boosting. in math terms, you gotta get the thrust vector dot product with the pull vector of the hole negative, and you win win.

It can be cool to e.g. rise up by letting a gravi hole in front above you pull you over an obstactle, make a nice posi shot, and thrust down forward again, with a ship that on itself would never pull those accelerations to drift like that. So while the reason is different, the graphs would be similar, if that singularity is a rice corn planet, and you are a giant fluffy superlight spaceship using its inverse distance pull like gravity.

given the pull reduces over distance, you do actually keep that free momentum, *because* the pull is capped, given you have more max speed, so you can use the pull of the gravihole to get around it, similar to the slingshot - but in fact, the slingshot manouver would never work if you go straight through the middle because you would oscillate, instead of hyperbole, if it were virtual gravity, except you already do have escape velocity at entry, and indeed you would loose all gained speed. you would never go through the middle, because you actually want to conserve fuel, not use it to pay 100% of the escape velocity, even if you could solve that whole well there is a planet in the way thing.

slingshot uses the physical fact to your advantage, that gravity is relative divided to the distance squared, and you are small, and that planet is big, so it can move a bit for you aswell, which is why the conservation of energy in the slingshot manouver / gravi assists is actually neglected. that is the equivalent of a godlike force pulling you stronger the closer you get, so exactly what the gravi hole is doing, no matter if its just 3 spheres with increased linear force, or whatever. it just changes the resolution of the movement.

I admit, I looked it up, but only if I am not misinforming us both ;) and because i actually find this thought experiment interesting.

I'd whish we had the exact numbers here, one could theoretically fit a ship to be able to make gravitocrobatics.

theoretically, you could use this in a destroyer to orbit that hole and keep your speed aswell, but well, good luck holding all those keys, and micromanaging your rotation speed. It would look hilarious.

with frigates you can do some stunts tho. definitely. even on purpose!

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Just make an empirical experiment. Custom battle 2 guys, one in a destro that shoot a gravy hole directly on a beacon, another guy sitting at 0 m\s at a given distance from it.

Take note of the seconds the frigate guy needs to reach the beacon (the center of gravy), and you will get an idea of accelleration. Repeat this at different distance.

Btw so far as I saw, next to 0 frigs have enough strafe speed to escape a gravy hole in 500~m range (but I never tried buffing it, usually with implants or passive mods I only buff rotation or use a shared cooler) . The only escape speed is achieved by rotating your ship and activate afterburner in the opposite direction. Even like that, a ship like the Brokk/mauler have next to 0 chance to escape a close range gravy by strafing, even if you waste modules to buff it.

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A frigate with no strafing implant or Inertia Stabilizer can't get away from BH epicenter without forwarding thrust, but if you have an implant, any frigate can get pretty far by strafing in 2 directions + reverse thrust. even if frig pilot went to sleep and BH was dropped dead in the center.

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Maybe not a bug... but still a thing that should not happen... can't you guys just accept that you made a mistake?

Seems like you can't. Pilot base is constantly complaining about such match-maker issues. And the changes you make in order to maintain this systhem never work. Just give us back our tiers... please!

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10 hours ago, Skula1975 said:

Not a bug

Please read again because it is most certainly a bug.

Patch notes here say: 

"
  • Easy: battles between ships from rank 1 to 5

  • Medium first level: battles between ships from rank 5 to 7
  • Medium first level: battles between ships from rank 7 to 10
  • Hard: battles between ships from rank 10 to 15

"

There is nowhere in those ranges that a rank 9 should meet a rank 13!

Please ask me questions if you do not understand what I'm trying to say or if require more details or more proof.

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Hello there :) It's not a bug, rank 9 ships can be matched in high ranks battles. With current bonus system and matchmaker system working, rank 9 ships became competetive in these fights, that's why made this adjustments. This's a part of our experimenting with MM system, and it means that we will make some changes there from time to time, and we're watching closely how it is going. To not encounter any high rank battles, it's only need to pick up rank 8 ships for example and launch yourself into battle.

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